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Calculation error?


#21

I don’t see how .NETs have anything to do with the ELR calculator. Just by the very nature of what they are. They can vary like night and day. Unless using the same batch, even bringing them up in the same sentence let alone recipe seems like where the confusion might be.


#22

The weight vs volume thing didn’t come up while discussing NETs necessarily. It was just in a conversation that started out with NETs, but then went in to recipe sharing and then a very similar discussion to what is going on in this thread.


#23

You are right they don’t have anything to do with the calculator. NETs were only used as an example of how there are built in errors when using a volumetric conversion system to get a precise engineered way of mixing repeatable formulas. Another example is pointed out in this thread about the CAP Grape where the SG is quoted as being anywhere from 0.88 to 1.77 So whether it is a synthetic CAP grape or a NET you have to deal with the problem. There is no way around it. The problem is part and parcel of doing things that way.


#24

Yea using simple weight is good. Since it’s all relative. As long as you update the precise weight used for new test batches, if it tastes good. It should upscale to a big batch just fine.

If I could afford to buy 1 repeatable battery operated pippette @ $500.00 per unit for volume mixing, I’d just buy store juice to vape. But I like doing this stuff, it’s an awesome hobby. :wink:


#25

I will still maintain that for the purposes of sharing and replicating recipes, the best way to go is mixing by volume and everybody just agreeing to use the standard of 1 g= 1 ml. Whether or not that specific gravity is accurate, if everybody is working with that same assumption, then we will all be mixing the same recipe the same way. When you’ve got 90% of the people already using 1g=1ml as the standard, and then someone from the 10% that are using actual SG wants to make the recipe, they will get a different outcome. If you share recipes with %wt, then depending on if you mix max VG or 60/40 PG/VG, you’ll be getting different outcomes. If I were to ask someone to mix up a single flavor test of Black for Pipe at 3% by weight, but they’re using max VG where I’ve tested it with 60/40, we can both mix up a 10g total weight sample, but I’ve added 8.61 ml of my PG/VG, and they’ll add 7.7 ml of VG. While both 10% by weight, my sample will be 3.37% by volume, and theirs will be 3.75% by volume. In order for sharing recipes in % by weight to work, you’ll have to get everyone to agree to use the same base if you want the final juice to taste the same. It’s just much easier to share recipes with the flavors as % by volume and agreeing to a standard of 1g=1ml. If the actual SG of the Black for Pipe is .89, it won’t matter. We will both mix up a 10 ml with our preferred base and add .3g flavor, and 9.7 ml base.


#26

Yes most do it this way. Assume 1:1 SG and it will all be relative to the weight used and very repeatable and upscaleable to even gallon batches.

The SG with PGA will evaporate over time depending, and increase in weight.

For example, If I make a new recipe and I want 2% of a flavor but I drop 2.3%. I update the recipe to indicate 2.3%. Because that 0.3% over a larger batch will make a difference. This might be where a lot of people might not care to give attention or updating their recipe.


#27

When PGA evaporates, your bottle will NOT ‘increase in weight’. In fact, your bottle will decrease in both weight and volume. The ‘density’ (g/ml) will increase. And mixing by ratios (either by weight or volume) will give you the exact same juice blend regardless if you mix 10ml or 1000ml.


#28

When adapting someone else’s recipe there is no way to know if the original author used drops (and note the drops/ml is set per user, and also not per bottle), 1:1, 1:1.038, built-in SGs or per user custom SGs. It’s also possible that the SG in the database could have been ‘updated’ from the time of the original authorship, whether it was originally a publication mistake or if the mfg changed formulas over time. Ultimately you need to mix and adjust any recipe according to your own processes.


#29

@bminor

Thank you for elaborating.

I see so many Whole numbers in recipes. 1% 2% 3% 4% %5. I don’t think people care so much.

But for new small recipe creations at 3mL. If you really drop 2.4% and say to yourself 2% is good enough to note. After 1 month steep… if it is a good recipe and you make a 30mL batch. That 0.4% you wrote-off as not important- maybe 1 drop for a 3 mL tester. But it turns into 10 drops, you are now leaving out for a 30mL batch. 20 extra drops for a 60mL and 40 drops for a 120mL batch.

Just using drops to make it simpler to see how something so small can turn into a big thing.


#30

Yes but it still won’t change the actual original recipe as it was when you mixed and didn’t add the extra the .4 it will still be ok if you leave off the .4 - I don’t quite understand what you are saying if you always leave off the extra .4 it will remain as good as the recipe you first mixed


#31

1 drop (0.02g) in 3ml would only be a 0.66% error. Unlikely you would notice that. But the difference between 2 and 2.4% is a 20%, which would more likely be noticable, especially with super/ultra strong flavorings where you may only want to use .2-.5% in your mix. I rarely make anything less than 30ml these days, as I need enough to test it multiple times over steeping periods, in different atomizers etc.


#32

Oh… I start with a smaller 2-3mL testers for everything. Before I commit to anything larger.


#33

id suggest larger testers, 2-3ml be tough to impossible w/ some flavors


#34

If you’re not letting them steep then you are never going to taste the true potential. And to find the sweet spot, you have to steep, test, steep, test, sometimes for up to 2 weeks. 2ml would last me about one short test period with one atomizer. When I started (almost 5 years ago) I used to make 5-10ml samplers and I found it just wasn’t enough to fully test it over time, so I migrated to 20-30ml testers.


#35

I do 1 month min steep. I put them away and forget about them. Right now Im Kinda looking for good long steepers, so a big batch is worthwhile for me. If it looses something like a fruit I can just add it back. and say Ok this is a good base but add fruit later. You know how it goes.


#36

I always test new recipes immediately, after 4-6 hours, and then about every 2-3 days. Some actually taste best after 3 days and then start to fade or get muddy. Others bloom nicely after 1-2 weeks. I don’t expect the same behavior for all recipes. Once I know a recipe, then I can do what is needed for that one. Anyway, do whatever works for you.


#37

Yep have plenty 1 and 2 flavor receipes also, if I need something right away, they work good for a quicky. :wink: More looking into long term development right now.

Just think it’s funny talking about using SG when most I see always has whole numbers for %'s IF I use whole #'s it’s because I got it correct or bumped it up to the next whole number on purpose.


#38

Yes, this makes sense and fortunately through experience when mixing (by weight), a number like this will stick out like a sore thumb. If I was a volume mixer I may have never noticed the gram weight was nearly double ML weight. I did back off, so my yield from the 8ML flavor vile will be 80MLS @6% and 80MLS @4% as opposed to 5% (eyeballing it).


#39

You and I are on the same page… gee… :wink:


#40

I believe it is more of the “idea” @woftam

I agree, most do not care, and more is great… only in their opinion!

Could be enough to find out if you need more or less… depending on manufacture and composition of flavorings, I agree. Common sense comes into play if it is too light or if it is overwhelming and tastes chemical or off…

but your amounts wont last me any time for serious testing… I go for 30ml in various weights, sometimes even up to 120ml bottles. I mix by drops and knowing my drop is .02g (rounded up or down) 6 yrs ago I found how I can mark my taste spots and how flavor development does have standards…

I will say it took me a long time to find a medium here with the calculator, as my scales are a bit more sensitive than the standard 100.00% here and to make the site match my scales I would need a 100.000% minimum. This is why I have rounded to .02g as most that use scales are using the aws 501 that only goes to .02g