Hidden science behind normal and accelerated e-Liquid steeping

Yes, so the mallard reaction occurs at about 160°c in cooking. But when boiling the water temperature is limited to 100°. So we add baking soda and cook in a pressure cooker capable of bringing the temperature up to 120°. Thats some theory for you.

Right in this reaction it is occurrinin very slowly due to lo temps. ( think searing a steak reaction takes minutes at most because we are at 200°+ the reaction here we are talking days/weeks. Reducing ph and/or temperature will speed up that’s all. Not necessarily better. Just faster, so if by putting in a alkali make sure it not detract from flavour, otherwise what’s the point. Just wait. Remember also the opposite is true. Cold & acid will slow it down.

Would be interesting to measure ph and use that and temperature to produce a steeping time chart. Something for a rainy day/months. That’s the key and that should be a task one of the community needs to do 1 day. Once I’m more experienced. I can have a look. I have a finely controlled water bath & a dehydrator which I can control temperature. If people have cellars they can be part of helping too. 1 day. Have a play.

Walt at real flavors has suggested that flavors will begin to break down at temperatures exceeding 135 degrees F. I currently use a hot water bath at 130. Thinking its time to invest in an ultrasonic cleaner. Testing using my SADD light needs to be done as well. As both light and heat are said to degrade nicotine im thinking of adding only 1% nic initially and then hitting it with heat, ultrasonic tech, and SADD light cycle. Then adding remaining nic afterwards. Concerns nic affects flavor need to be considered and “control” juice will need to be cross referenced. My hope is that a 2month steep for a Custard can be reduced to 7-14 days

When talking about acids and alkali in solution, saline is a “buffer” which means it keeps the pH nearer to neutral if you add acids. Adding baking soda has been a topic, but I think the pitfall is your juice has a shorter shelf life (because it continues to speed steep/Maillard react).

Keeping the pH neutral makes more sense (using saline?) as Maillard still happens, yet you retain shelf-life. Saline as a buffer doesn’t really neutralize acid, it just blocks rapidly rising pH as you add more acidic flavorings (anything sour) which could actually stop steeping/Maillard reaction.

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I love science lessons on here so much better than school.very good work.

I’m a professional chemist and lab rat. This topic is really not easy to cover, so I just want to throw out my 2 cents for those interested. Because steeping has no distinct endpoint it would be difficult for me to put directions in ink. I steep differently all the time and with a variety of equipment. I always begin by off-gassing the volatile organics (alcohols) by one method or another. This can strip off the volatile flavorings as well, so as stated in this thread you would want to hold the delicate flavorings for the end, or else fortify your mixture with them at your option.

I basically start the process by shaking the mixture to produce bubbles at around 40C. The more bubbles, the more gas/liquid surface area. Then, to speed up the off-gassing I add a pretty strong vacuum source while stirring over magnetic stirbar. Instead of stirring, I’ve used ultrasonic agitation as well. The point is to add the bubbles, let them rise, and strip the volatiles. I do it a few times and it seems that the steeping is usually mostly complete.

Sorry there’s no equipment list or definitive times. It’s more like cooking. You can’t really engineer a flavor from theory. How do taste buds work? What’s a chemical bond? Big questions, short answer.

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great dude

Hi all !
Most interesting topic ever.
I’m just stocked into the translation of “blended to a foam” as google translate does not want to translate it accurately : I understand that I need to blend the mix with a foam and im not sure of this !
So more clearly : I should take the mic and then use a bakery mix/ blender/drumel/milk foamer etc and mix the juice ? Or I’m totally out of topic ?

Thanks !!!

Not entirely sure what you are trying to achieve. You do not want to “blend to a foam” specifically. Normally this outcome might be due to using a mixer of some sort. Which for me has 2 advantages. 1 it mixes, obviously it blends the thicker VG with the most often PG based flavours. Secondly, it is a method of exposing the liquid to as much oxygen in the shortest amount of time. In modern wine circles they are blending their wines before serving rather then just letting them breath. It’s turbo breathing. Same logic here.

Hope that helps.

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Think you are talking about simple wine … all the good wine steep in a tempered, dark and quietly place. All in all, I belive in patience :slight_smile:

Correct, down in the wine cellar they age. Can round out & mature flavours. I’m no expert but know the basics. There is a lot of similarities, the wine community to speed up aging use heating, ultrasonic, sounding familiar!

Just to be a little clearer, modern sommeliers rather then decanting their wine to be served to a customer in decanter bottles, they have taken to putting them in high speed blenders & pulsing. The idea is that it introduces as much surface area to the “air” in the shortest amount of time. They put the wine back in the bottle & voila, the wine has “breathed”. Try it at home, do half blended then see if you can taste the difference.

So I don’t think this can hurt when it comes to ejuice. Personally I use a milk frother to mix my recipes. I had to have something to stir or shake the mix. The frother introduces oxygen in my mind, more than other methods. I haven’t compared to others, but it seems sound.

If continue to do your research as you have, you will find many methods. It’s up to you, your budget and/or what you have on hand. I already had the frother.

Enjoy your juice!

I am afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you. And your follow-up:

The wine comparison is flawed because this is desirable at the end of storage/ immediately before consumption. NOT at the time of bottling. The truth is exposure to air (oxygen in particular) is one of the classic “wine faults.” Likewise, oxygenating (e-liquid is usually considered undesirable, unless one is intentionally trying to oxidize nicotine, for flavor, or throat hit.

The desired intent of “breathing” e-liquid (and heating, and stirring to a point as well) is to off-gas, or release unwanted volatile compounds, such as ethyl alcohol, and others that can lend an artificial, harsh, unwanted, or chemical taste to our mixes. However, we have to weigh the accelerated loss of these unwanted components, with the loss of wanted ones like aromatics.

Just like most things in life; there are “right” and “wrong” times for most everything. Same with various mixing methods. Heat, violent stirring/shaking, and exposure to air, may indeed benefit a tobacco, or custard, or chocolate recipe (esp. if it has a high alcohol content). But it will absolutely destroy a light fruity, or floral recipe. So “yes” it can hurt when applied in the inappropriate situation.

That darn watermelon that is never strong enough, or that lemon that always seems to fade after a week and a half, may give you better results if you just give it a good shake and commence to vaping.

It drives me nuts to read posts of “I just age everything a month before I even taste it!” WHY? How can you know how it has changed, or even IF it has changed, if you don’t know how it tasted in the beginning? If I did that with my lemon recipes I might as well be vaping an unflavored blend. Because, for me, they are over the hill and all but gone before the end of the second week after mixing. I stopped mixing large batches of those for precisely that reason. I’d get through 15-20% of the batch only to find the primary flavor had left the building.

If it works for you; God bless you! I am genuinely glad for you. But I don’t understand how anyone can understand what they are truly doing if they don’t taste, taste, taste, and taste some more. I follow a tobacco thread on another forum and tobaccos are notorious for needing weeks and weeks before they are ready to vape. But, even within that flavor class, people are routinely commenting that they prefer certain tobacco flavors fresh because they do indeed change. Just not for the better (to their palate). They would never learn this if they were not tasting early and often.

I have been through most of the “speed steeping” methods, and it wasn’t until I started tasting my mixes fresh after mixing, and then again after treatment, and even dividing my fresh mixes in two and treating half while allowing the other half to age naturally, that I realized (for me) that they more often did nothing, or hurt, rather than helped, my mixes.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe they can have their usefulness and I still use some to this day. I always use the little Badger hand paint mixer to blend my newly combined mix (for convenience; not because I feel it adds anything to the end product. And I chose the Badger specifically because it introduces less air than a regular frother). I will still use a gentle, slow heat (e.g. open crock pot or even thermos w/ warm water) on a stubborn custard or tobacco. I have even been playing with seed steeping which seems to actually offer some benefit to those same long-wait custards and tobaccos… though it doesn’t offer anything noticeable (for me) for those mid-, short-, and no-steep recipes.

And, of course, it all depends on what the individual’s desired outcome is too. Am I willing to sacrifice (if any) flavor and/or depth for speed? What do my own taste buds tell me? Am I satisfied by the results? When does all the fiddlin’ stop being a passion and start to become a PITA? Each of us has to answer these questions for ourselves.

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I’ve said it before in other threads too it would seem a rotary evap is an ideal tool for e-liquid and from what I can gather from your post, would you agree

If you are familiar with them you will know what benefits it could provide. For those that are not familiar. the rotary evap could dial in temperatures specifically and because it’s under a vacuum. it boils/evaporates at lower then the equivalent not under vacuum. Hence the balancing act for losing aromatics is balanced more in your favour. Accurate distillation/gassing off with minimal aromatic & nicotine loss.

My experiences with DIY have not nearly been as intuitive as I have with my cooking I am finding it very challenging. Its a very different discipline. I always seem to find my thoughts finding analogous situations that I 'm familiar with and finding the links, as is what we do, However, this is different. I am especially glad it is as I like a challenge and more ground to be discovered.

From a speed steeping point of view, I’m happy to wait and just let them do what they have to do on their own. But I thought the speed steeping was using methods that were just accelerating the process. You described some things you do which is great. Badger, etc. From what I can gather you only really do a bit of work on custards and cream. other then that you do fresh and have taken the time to learn the point when certain flavours fade. Gosh can i have your experience. I was particular interested to learn of flavour fade. All my mixes I taste every 3 days from mix. As you state it gives me a perspective of change as best I can and as much as I keep notes it is very hard to compare from each lot of days along the way. I’m comparing my tastes to the memory and notes from 3/6/9, etc days previous. Very hard and open to all types of brain fizz playing tricks. wish I could be bothered to do like quick fresh tank mixes. then I could do that. In my mind I’m really looking out form major alterations, any perceived minor changes I put down as negligible. That’s just me.

Great post. I know more and also have more questions too. You’ve taken the time to go through your process in detail and give us a window into a well tuned system and earned knowledge. Keep em coming.

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Thanks for articulating what I’ve been thinking for the last month. I started vaping 10 weeks ago and knew I wanted to DIY after the first week due to the difficulty in sourcing ejuices (I’m in the Middle East). So I researched, searched across continents and managed, with help from some great people, to source everything I need. I made my first batch 12 days ago following recipes from this site. Some are pretty good, to my surprise, some are horrible.

However, I feel like I’ve been sucked into the rabbit hole. I rationalize it by saying it’s better than smoking and eventually I’ll find 4-5 ADVs, mix them up once a month and get on with my life. I’ve read so much in the last two months and so much of it is conflicting and conjecture. I’m just venting I guess.

Thanks for your input, it’s greatly appreciated as it serves as a signpost to where I want to be.

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Welcome to the Fire my brother :sunglasses:

Thanks for the civility my peeps. This thread is a quest. Any secrets we can only hope to stumble upon utilizing our (mostly) home-brew gear, example using a cream whipper instead of a rotary evaporator :wink: I would think any real secrets would be protected under the most stringent Intellectual Property guidelines at E-Juice Corp HQ.

In our little micro-brew DIY adventure most discoveries lay in-between …if we look carefully we may catch a glimpse. In this foggy endeavor I listen more closely for a clue than right and wrong, so many thanks to all. This is all tasty treats for a curious mind. If I found a real secret would I share? …or have I already Muhahaha :alien: :santa:

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Really only two words needed for your post.

Thank you

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I know OF them; I would not even pretend to say I am acquainted, let alone familiar with them. While I could see the benefit; that type of lab equipment is W A Y beyond the scope of the average DIYer (including myself). So I (my opinion only) feel they really belong as part of a DIY discussion. Perhaps for a small high-end commercial boutique it would be worthy of consideration. If you have professional access to one, and the boss lets you play with personal projects, give it a try. I would be curious of the results.

I would be so bold as to say that perhaps you are over thinking DIY too much? CAN you apply scientific principles to DIY? Sure. Some of us like to know the “whys” behind the “hows” but is it really required to make good juice. No.

I think (once again; my opinion only) that really knowing your individual ingredient, knowing how they taste, knowing what too little and too much taste like, how they interact with other flavors, and how YOU relate to them, is 95% of GOOD juice making. You can know all the tricks and techniques under the sun but they won’t help you one lick if you don’t know your ingredients. And, sadly, the only way to learn that is TIME and PRACTICE. Unfortunately most of us are not willing to invest the time.

And it only gets worse as you get older; welcome to MY world!:scream:
Add to that the fact that our perception to taste is constantly changing and you can drive yourself nuts. That is why I keep referring to DIY as a journey. It is those individuals that come in, and want to be perfect right out of the gate, that will get discouraged and give up. Know that time and repetition (and failures along with successes) are part of the process and we all go through it. Don’t get frustrated; wear it as a badge of honor. Learning is growing.[quote=“Volition, post:154, topic:21024”]
Great post. I know more and also have more questions too. You’ve taken the time to go through your process in detail and give us a window into a well tuned system and earned knowledge
[/quote]

Thank you; just trying to give back a little of what so many others have already given to me. But please understand; I still consider myself VERY much a novice. I DO NOT have all the answers. There are A LOT of FAR BETTER mixers here. I am on the same journey as everybody else. Hopefully, together we can shorten the learning curve a little, and make it more enjoyable.

Thank you for your kind words (and even being willing to red my drivel).

Merry Christmas to everyone!

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I’ve tried enough of my juices after mixing and waiting 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc that I know they are the best for my taste after about a month. I do just a thorough shake, then store the bottle in a cool dark place upright for a month. I did not care for the results i obtained on all my juices with a frother, so I quit using it. I vape sweet fruits and wish I liked creams haha, but i don’t really. I’ve just learned to do it the way I do it, I’m not going to quit even if it drives you nuts :slight_smile:

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Love it!:grin: You put the time in, you found what worked for you, and you are now able to apply it for repeatable satisfying results for you! I have no problem with that what so ever and wouldn’t dream of trying to change your mind.:+1:

You also demonstrate nicely that one method can work well for one person while not working for another (my wimpy paint stirrer works for me; you didn’t care for your results with a frother and rightly moved on to something else). I do not fathom how 4 weeks can benefit a fruit mix (and yes I have tried); while that is precisely the sweet spot for you (and I respect your results 100%). I firmly believe that DIY has room for any and everyone who wants to invest the time to find there own “sweet spot.”

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That’s what I’m aiming for have the knowledge of my established mixes. That I know exactly when it’s ready to be picked from the tree.

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well… i’m making fruit juices only with 3 mg nicotine… as long as i know it’s shake and vape juices… but i always feel a strong hit in my liquids while i vape 9 mg liquid from the shop without any problem… what am i doing wrong ?

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