Super-duper concentrated ingredients - how do you do it?

E-liquids Flavors
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The way I see things Pat…

First… Most on there are not how can I say this better? Let me break down your first post and go from there… might work a bit better for you and myself.

The first thing I noticed from you:
" I was looking trough my recipes and noticed that there is quite a bit of conversion that I am going to have to do based on the way that my mixing has evolved over the years, particularly around certain ingredients/flavors that fit the profile of “less is more”, things like acetyl-pyrazine, pure menthol and sucralose solute, and manufactured ingredients like some of the Super Concentrates tobacco blends just to name a few."

This is true…not that I say you lie, but that I agree on this. Less is more, in certain situations.

Next:
“I’ve never paid much attention to the reproducability of my recipes beyond my own ability to recreate them should I choose to do so, but now that I am participating on ELR and want to share some of the knowledge I’ve acquired,”

Why not? Do you not have friends that vape or mix too? If so, do you share with them, and if not… after all these years, why now?

Next:
" I realize that it’s difficult to ‘standardize’ the ingredients for some of the recipes I am most fond of, not because I can’t boil the numbers down to a specific percentage, that would be easy, but because I tend to dilute many of the flavorings, enhancers, and other solutions that I use when trying to achieve and maintain a perfect balance in my recipes. "

In flavorings and additives, I rarely dilute anything these days. There just is not a need, I don’t use sweeteners much at all. I create my own vanilla/vanillin, citric/malic acetyl-pyraizne (from powder) and I use ws5 and menthol. So I understand creating the dilutions. I have sold my recipes for all of my additives to a company I can not name, nda. However I do use the products I have sold and I am not bothered to recreate it every time I need it, I tell the lab and they send it out to me. I have been grateful for that, and it’s not often I run low, so no, I just do not do that any longer. From a manufacture that sells my creations, there is no longer a need for me to do so.

Next:
" Seeing someone put a percentage measurement of 0.10% of a particular ingredient on a recipe posting doesn’t seem so out of the ordinary I guess, but in batches of only 30ml or so, accurately measuring out .03ml of anything is difficult at the very best, so diluting that ingredient in a 10% solution not only makes sense, it’s prudent. I mean, let’s be honest, measuring .30ml is MUCH easier than measuring .03ml. "

Ok on this one I have to stop here and say… no one has yet had any issues with that small amount of mixing. I have had people mixing up my Winstin with no issues… and it has one ingredient in it with .07% or 2 drops or .04g/.04ml http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/1909634/Smoky+Blue%27s+Winstin+Tobacco So what ever you have… post it up. Don’t be thinking it is too small to use or think others can not. I do not dilute Lime Wedge from FLV. Sure I could, but why make extra work when I can use a scale and achieve what I need?? You certainly would have issues with a syringe! I think you think I am pushing weight on you, but it is what works easiest for myself and others.

next:
" So, having said all of that, does it make more sense to add unique ingredients to the database that pertain to diluted manufacturer products, along the lines of “Super Sweet (CAP) 10% in PG” and put the numbers I use to mix it, or should I boil down all the ingredients to the concentrations that are available directly from the vendors and let each mixer worry about how to mix in the minute quantities of each when I decide to post my recipes? "

@TorturedZen as already said:

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but you did not respond to him like you did me. He is the one that helps with dups etc on elr, and a pretty decent guy… but you I guess did not see his post. Nor did you see how many agree with him. Cluttering up an already messed up database to me, won’t be so hot… keep it to notes like I said. Put a disclaimer on it. That you mix by using ____________.

Next:
" I am leaning toward the latter, as I think anyone who mixes should be quite capable of figuring out exactly how to get specific quantities of anything into their juices, but I figured I would try to follow proper etiquette and ask the forum for a consensus."

If someone is new, they might have issues, but they tend to go to the popular ones and repeat it all throughout elr. It is why the popular recipes are so popular. Let’s not talk about strawberry. :slight_smile:
However, people that a bit of sense can mix most anything. I have seen some newbies, and even counting myself in this years ago, pick up mixing like a duck takes to swimming. What I am trying to say is do it. Just post what you do and hope someone can understand you… Don’t get all technical, but do not let someone get so lost either. It is a fine line and most only understand “I found a recipe and I mixed it and” so keep things simple.

I think you really on purpose take me wrong and it is easy to do in text. period. I broke all of your very first post down…
Perhaps now you understand where I am coming from. I have been around for ages, and have seen all kinds of things.

I even told you poll people to see how they mix.

Chances are tho, us users of scales as you like to call it… yes, we are a minority, however, being so analytical yourself, you already understand the reasons, yet again, you are still going on about it. It’s not me. I actually hope you will make a spot for yourself and enjoy your experience sharing recipes. It’s nice to see someone that is thinking before just sharing… Now go back and re read everything I said and think on what I am saying here. I know we both speak English… so yeah… :slight_smile:

Your message this morning… yeah maybe you did take me wrong…

I also have a storm coming, family up from down on the beach and I shouldn’t have to do this, either yesterday or now… but I did in hopes of reaching out to you and sharing some advise.
You asked for it in your post, and this is just my advise. No you do not have to take everything I say as gospel…

Try to have a better day.

Smoky

PS I have yet to derail this thread :slight_smile: I wont email you, appreciate the offer.

For every application there is a process, a way to go about doing things… You wouldn’t want to take your chisel to something you only want to make fine lines on… you wouldn’t take a wide paint brush for those fine lines too. This is what I know. I can’t use a syringe to measure out .04ml of flavoring. (I could but I know I would be off in some way) so yes, scales do make better sense to me.

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For once, @50YearsOfCigars… I agree with you. :wink:

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Now this is def off topic… and nopes I wont do an inbox… :slight_smile:

@50YearsOfCigars… I still think you are amazing tho :wink:
Brave man :shamrock: I still giggle over that 15% :stuck_out_tongue: but I think we both learned a few things and that is my point… we all still learn, fuss and argue… but at the end of the day, it’s what we take home and enjoy. What you like, I might not, but we still sleep dreaming of good vapes and how we like doing it… :slight_smile:

If we all mixed the same, tasted the same… this place wouldn’t be here, and I know I would be so bored…
We all would be, and there wouldn’t be a need to share.

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I looked over your recipe, looks fine to me, as is in the recipe.

this bit here:

****For the tiny ratios like the SC “Havana Dry” in the note above and the Vape Wizard and 5% Acetyl Pyrazine in the listed recipe, I personally prefer to dilute those ingredients at 10% in 90% PG to facilitate accurately measuring those small quantities, in which case I just multiply by 10 the quantity I measure or weigh. It helps me reduce my margin of error in the measurement of those ingredients when creating small batches (less than 120ml) and allows me to more easily recreate this recipe with consistent results.

You have explained how you did it. Me personally, if I were to mix it, I would use scales and no dilutions at all. It is easy to scale up and down for the amounts you want to use, and true, some recipes there is a limit of how small, due to how the calculator here is set up. It is also easier to mess up, when using a syringe to add an extra “drop” and that too is all it takes to change a recipe’s outcome. One tiny drop and that recipe has extra compounds not computed. (Especially if you deal with ultra concentrated flavorings).

As I said earlier, for a long time I would not post up my recipes due to how the calculator was working for me. I know my recipes are 99.99% all Flavorah…I know how many drops are in my mls. and have noticed some of the drops the calculator puts out, is not exact. This is why I said, because I am so anal on things, the best I can hope for is that someone can figure it out, to grab a taste of what my recipes are about, and can enjoy it, despite the limitations I found. For it to work as an exact, the calculator would have to read 100.00% total, for as low as I go.

I hope this makes a bit of sense to you, Pat… if not, I can break it down even more. I did show Lars what I was saying and even he understood and said I was the first in the last 8+ yrs to bring it up. :slight_smile:

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Hello again @50YearsOfCigars.

Unfortunately, the pharmaceutical industry is vastly different and most of the ingredients we use, even in the post-processing lab, are formulated and compounded in-house. Having said that, the levels of purity and tolerance are extremely high in most aspects, so it doesn’t pose an issue in that instance per se as it is well documented and regimented in that environment. With respect to vaping, I concur completely with your assertion, and believe that flavor manufacturers would do well to cater to the vaping/DIY enthusiast since it is still a rapidly expanding market for them and will most certainly translate to increased income for them! :slight_smile:

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Conversations about diluting flavors have been around for the entire life of ELR. Nothing new or groundbreaking today. Here’s a very early post on dilutions, with a lot of very good comments…

Especially…

It sounds like the OP’s most standard dilution is 9:1 / PG:Flavor dilution and can be easily explained in the notes section by a quick explanation of moving the decimal point left by one number to use the pure flavor percentage for any dilutions in your recipes. This way you can maintain the Most Commonly Used Flavor name in the data base.

Like @anon84779643 I don’t dilute any flavors, but I do add a note like…

1 drop Lemon MF per 30 mls.
1 drop Orange MF per 15 mls.

Some might ask why per 30 mls. It’s the minimal amount I find adequate for testing and steeping. Also I haven’t found any flavor to need any further dilution in a mix.

You might also say… “Oh No… DROPS!” I say yes drops. I have yet to find any pg based flavor or extract the doesn’t register between .02-.03 mls per drop when using slender tip bottles or the standard MF bottles. Knowing your flavors also helps when using drops

It is actually insane to test some flavors that high… especially known highly concentrated flavors or extracts. Usually in the flavor research process of choosing flavors you want to try, you should be able to locate a close starting percentage for your SF test… IF you know how to navigate the Flavor Note Page.

IMO it’s best to start at the low end of any suggested usage % and work up or down from there if needed.

I really don’t do much SF test myself anymore, because I have my own method of gauging most flavors properties.

That was true at one time, but more and more mixers are becoming attracted to and is using this concept. But as long as you can buy 120 mls of concentrate for $6.99, it’ll never be as popular as mixing high usage % standard flavors.

These are my thoughts and opinions from my mixing experiences… YMMV.

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Maybe you should have said “IMO” :stuck_out_tongue:

But spot on, @Pro_Vapes, not that I think he will acknowledge or agree.
Thank you.

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I did add a disclaimer… :rofl:

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You certainly did, although you have to read the entire post to get to it. Fairly evident some respond without doing so…

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IMO
So by that kind of logic, everyone that makes a post should put a disclaimer on each post they make.
Forever and ever.

Absolutely redundant. but hey “IMO” Good luck with that.

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yep that’s how the internet nowadays work. Would be surprised how many times I got ripped a new one on forums, not really this one in particular but other onrs, because someone got offended. Then I added things like “in my opinion”“in my experience”" for me personal " etc. But nearly every sentence started with that, making sure I’m not stepping on somebody again, trust me even then people still attacked me for tasting something else they did, or using a other method and what not. all that did was questioning myself. By now I learned, while I have a opinion on lots of the topics or different experience, I the hell stay out of it, for the most part lol.

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I hear ya @eStorm :wink:

I bounce one way the other, most of the time I rarely post here, and when I do, well… I do it well or as well as I can. Sad we all feel like tipping over things some days, and coming from a good job position and an education, I too should just stay super quiet and munch popcorn too.

That is what some male specimens require. As long as I was good old browski, it was all peaches and cream… :wink: but since I do come with tatas and a hoohoo and an opinion on factual accounts I have gone thru. Sometimes tho, they have to learn on their own. Even 15% removed his posts from here. so I hope IMO is happy… just as much as we are. :slight_smile:

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I’ve been through cycles like this myself, so I understand what you mean. Regardless of what is written or posted and as long as you are speaking from your own experiences then whatever the next person think about it is on them… you are staying true to yourself. We all have different experiences and most times they are unique so don’t hold back.

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I really should not say it is a gender thing, however it is common to be in the minority position, at least at my lab. I had a few rough times the first 6 months and a lot of that was due to no training, everything was new and so many things going on. :slight_smile:

just so everyone knows I was joking on my prior post IMO.

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AM NOT! :angry:

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ok, Only when people listen to him :stuck_out_tongue:

fixed!

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You know, it honestly isn’t about that. My stance is that people read the forum posts to learn what they don’t know about, and/or share what they do. I was not offended, I just firmly believe in calling people out who offer advice about things they appear to have no real-world experience with, or who make blanket statements that are simply not true.

For instance:

I don’t throw away glassware as there is no need, and secondly, acetone is in common use in the food and drug industry for cleaning laboratory glassware because it removes not only the polar compounds we use, it also removes soaps and oils left over from soap and water cleansing. Further to that point, I add the following from the FDA PAM-

From the FDA PAM Chapter 5 on reagent blanks and laboratory glassware cleaning:
“Equipment should be washed thoroughly and rinsed with solvent as soon as possible after use. Syringe plungers and needles should be wiped with lint-free wipers dipped in an appropriate solvent (e.g., acetone), and the barrel should be cleaned by drawing solvent through the needle and out the top by a vacuum applied to the top. Particular care should be taken to assure elimination of residues from glassware or syringes previously in contact with high concentrations of {high-toxicity reagents}.”

Ultimately its about contributing what you know and keeping silent or asking questions for what you don’t, not making stuff up as you go along because of some perceived need to be the authority on everything.

For my part, I will NOT contribute false information about things that I do not know, will offer my experience and use examples for that which I do, and ask questions for those things that I wish to be educated on, but I will not easily be offended.

I apologize if I offended anyone, but I believe we should deal in facts when making claims, and deal in experiences when expressing opinions. Hopefully that clarifies things a bit.

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Seriousness here, I do not think it would be a bright idea for anyone using plastic disposable syringes with acetone. It will strip away the black lettering (it’s also what is in nail polish remover) and if not rinsed out properly, and then stuck into flavor/base/nic can cause issues. (excuse me I did a typo… should be Acetoin so strike the next out).

Not too many use glass syringes, that I know of… Most of what I see and hear about are the plastics.

Again, a few polls could be a nice idea, before jumping on just one person here.

Thanks and try to have a good night!

and yeah ps,

most normal diy hobbyist do not have equipment (vaccums) to clean up their plastic syringes. Most do use, like I said, rubbing alcohol or vinegar and a rinse, normally under tap water. (should be distilled, but most I know just use tap water)

Like I said, keep things simple, Pat… Even tho it is used in labs, I would hate for someone to have an allergic reaction, or issues with vaping from using it.

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That was your assumption without knowing the details, again offering advice to me that I had not asked for nor needed. If you had stuck to the facets of the original post instead of injecting new topics into the discussion and giving erroneous advice to those who did not ask for or need it then you would not have been called out on it.

I will assume that you meant “vacuum pumps” which the article made no mention of. Simply stated, a vacuum is a negative air pressure, and typically vacuums are generated on needles by attaching them to syringes and drawing back the plungers, at least that’s how I draw solvent into my glassware and blunt tips (some stainless, some plastic.) That’s about as keep it simple as I can make it. Acetone is a non-residual solvent that evaporates quickly and 100% - what that means is that you can wipe something down with it or rinse your beakers, flasks, cylinders, pipettes, syringes, whatever with and it will leave no foreign odor, taste or residue on your equipment. This prevents contaminating other mixing utensils or vessels with components/flavors from a previous mix. To my knowledge it’s not an allergen, and if it is, even rarely, I’ve not encountered anyone who displayed an allergy to it, and honestly, if mixers work with Nicotine bases at or above 36mg/ml then they are already working with something much nastier than acetone in the first place, so again, know your topic before typing that response - I don’t think I’m asking for much in that regard beyond using the forum as a springboard for supporting over-inflated egos.

I’ll offer you back advice similar to how you continue to offer me ‘Keep it simple’. I know you didn’t ask for the advice, but humor me: Keep it humble! :+1:

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@PAFLICK

Your main question was - how you do it? meaning, other people, yes? You have had many suggestions from a lot of people here, you so far have had a few of the folks here, including me. Some like have given you even more ideas for more topics etc. Take their advise, if you do not take mine. Talking on assumptions, You are the one that brought up percentage based mixing, syringes and acetone. Not me.

Most mixers aim for cheap plastic syringes to mix by percentage. Don’t believe me, run a poll on how many use glass, metal or plastic syringes. Not everyone is vocal on this site, and a lot only read places like this, with zero desire to even talk. This place is pretty cool, with mixers from all walks of life, they all normally get along. :slight_smile:

I know what acetone does to a plastic syringe. It melts and eats at the plastic and rubber. Dissolves it. It is an irritant for skin, eyes and nasal passages. It also is used as a disinfectant, true, when one uses metal or glass, however, again, most here do not use acetone, and to plant an idea for people (that use plastic syringes) that acetone is safe. Yeah. Even hot water can damage a plastic syringe over time. Most anything flammable, has a habit of melting what it comes into contact with.

Cool video here

It’s not something I would use in a home environment with people that do not have proper tools and ventalation. If you like using it with your glass or metal syringes, who am I to stop you? This is just another reason why I like to use scales.

We all have different ways and ideas on how to mix, beauty is, we all can do it the way we all wish to. (or afford or… know how) because we are not all regulated like how a lab runs.

You want to talk on mixers and how they would do it. If they would understand how you mixed and could replicate. Your dilution you used, is average, most people do 9:1 styles. Unless you are working with solutions that are potent, not heard of, not easy to purchase, you won’t have any issues.

You think all this talk, on glass or metal syringes is how they will roll? No, most are looking for a cheap way out to make hopefully the cheap but best way to make the best juice, without putting a whole lot of work into it.

Think back to the time you started mixing, never mind your lab. Try in your own home without items you can bring home from your workplace, and use your own common sense on posting up your how to do. You already have one recipe, so keep going. Meantime, the storm has caught up to me, so again… have a good day… I hope other people will speak up and keep giving you a lot more ideas you can contemplate on.

Good luck once again!

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