And a Horse is a Motorcycle

Several days ago, @DarthVapor posted this video from Ron Kaufman, the owner of Independence Vapors near Philly. I’ve seen this video pop up several times as I’m quite often on YouTube, and today I made a point of paying a bit more attention. First thing that caught my attention was how he referred to the e-cigarette industry as “the vaporization market.” I found that to be a very odd choice of words, but hey, sometimes people try very hard to sound more intelligent than they are. Whatever. There were other little things he said and just his general manner that made me think - this guy is not an advocate for vaping at all. So I visited his website (which I refuse to link here) and lo and behold, I couldn’t believe my eyes. Sure, some states may require certain disclaimers or whatnot, so I did a search and checked out several websites for other vape shops in the Philly area. None had on them what his does. What follows is all I really needed to know to confirm my suspicions about, at the very least, how little this man know about the industry in which he is doing business:

Electronic cigarettes are designed to hold e-juice which can contain liquid nicotine. These are tobacco products and carry the same risks of addiction and hazard as other tobacco products. Liquid nicotine can be poisonous and should be handled with care by responsible adults. The e-juice used in electronic cigarettes is not, at present, approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Independence Vapors LLC makes no claims that using electronic cigarettes will reduce your usage of tobacco products.

Really? You own a vape shop and have right on your webpage “these are tobacco products?” This is just disgusting. E-cigarettes are tobacco products like a horse is a motorcycle. I’m completely dumbfounded. So much so I sent this guy an email today asking about it. I pretended not to know anything about e-cigs but he hasn’t responded. Oh gee, it would be awesome if he were a member here!!! One of us would get banned!

Oh and another thing. I neither agree nor disagree with his assertions of nickel wire. I have no knowledge. But I will say this. There is no pepperoni or italian sausage on a chocolate, cake, therefore the cake is not a pizza. Or something like that.


This possibly also explains why I wanted to punch him, as I watched the video :wink:


Me too Lars.And what kills me is how he says e-cigs are tobacco products, but they will not say using them will reduce a person’s use of tobacco products. I think he’s a *expletive" little “expletive” and should have his “expletive” cut off :smile:

I’ll post his reply to my email if he ever sends one.

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This are the key phrases. As I often say, you can use half truths to make whole lies.
Nicotine at e-liquids (and not e-juices) can be as addictive as nicotine at analogue cigs, but ecigs as a product isn’t a tobacco product (only what? 1.8% of the whole ecig is something that can be tobacco extracted) and centainly isn’t as hazard. CO and other chemical byproducts, plus tar and nicosamines are the hazard components of analogue cigs and aren’t contained in ecigs.
Liquid nicotine is poisonous, such are chlorine, any detergent and drugs-painkillers etc. So what?

I think that there is a tape somewhere and the ecig enemies playback again and again. After 4 years as a vaper, I think that I insult anybody’s intelligence by claiming that with ecigs I reduced the analogues. When I say that I used to smoke, but now I vape, I think that it’s crystal clear. No, I didn’t reduced smoking. I don’t smoke anymore.

Beware of people that aren’t zealots. These are the most dangerous, because their prejudice isn’t obvious.


You’re right…these are key phrases and ones I found odd to be grouped together. The first sentence is a doozy. So let’s re-word it to expound what was said.

These are tobacco products and carry the same risks of addiction and hazard as other tobacco products.

In other words…this is a product derived from tobacco. It can cause lung cancer, emphysema, heart disease, may complicate pregnancy including birth defects, premature birth and low birth weight. Vapor contains carbon monoxide as well as thousands of other hazardous chemicals.

Would you say that’s a fair summary of what that sentence means?

Liquid nicotine can be poisonous and should be handled with care by responsible adults.

This sentence I have no problem with because let’s face it…even though most vape shops have stopped carrying the high-nic e-liquids, some still do. But there are people out there who are terrible parents and irresponsible with their own safety as well. I understand this sentence being on his website and hopefully on his receipts and juice bottles because it can act as a buffer against a law suit.

So, I did get a response to my email. I half expected it to be rude and hateful. But whether this guy is genuinely nice or just business savvy enough to know better than to engage in an argument, here’s what he said…

Thank you for your message. My disclaimer at the bottom of the page is because the government does not allow vape shops to make health claims and the FDA classifies vaporizers as tobacco products. However, vapor has shown in many studies to be many orders of magnitude safer than combustible cigarettes. Vaporizers do not produce the tar and toxins present in cigarette smoke and does not produce secondhand smoke. If used properly, I think vapor is much better, but we still will need many years of study to make any real health claims or benefits.

My reply -

unless I’ve missed something, the FDA has only proposed to class e-cigs as tobacco products but has not done so yet. Otherwise they would have dropped their regulatory hammer and the US e-cig industry would be reeling from the full weight of that government agency. Surely you are aware of the efforts by so many in this country of condemning e-cigarettes, yes? I feel having that line on your website is utterly irresponsible. You are under no legal obligation to assert your products are tobacco products, so why do it? You know full well they are not tobacco products.

This may sound insulting, but I won’t sugar-coat what I’m about to say. I understand geographically you are in a very liberal-minded part of our great country, but at some point you have to say enough is enough. Political correctness be damned. Government intrusion be damned. If the Federal Government is going to do something as inane as “classifying” a product …which contains zero tobacco or tobacco derivatives… a tobacco product, let them do it without your help. For Pete’s sake get a backbone sir. Otherwise you are part of the problem, and not the solution.

Finally, he answered and said -

Thanks for your commentary on my online presence. I think you make some valid points about my disclaimer at the bottom of my store site and I will consider reworking the language. I wrote that over a year ago and certainly my thinking and the vapor industry has changed.

Does this incident warrant such a lengthy post as this? Probably not, But I do think it puts some emphasis on the fact that since the e-cigarette industry is still young it is most vulnerable to government involvement. We should not fan the flames and help the haters.


Excellent work.