Cinnamon flavor

You bet, Natbone ! While there truly are socio-political forces at play, and all claims should be viewed and considered carefully, one can potentially learn and hopefully make progress towards discerning a bit here and there from all kinds of sources. We all operate with confirmation (as well as non-confirmation) biases - and many sources of information are unlikely to neatly fit into simplistic pre-ceptions, making things complex.

I see that Erythropel, et al have just published an analysis of such (room temperature, rather than heated) e-juice chemical reaction products found in certain JUUL e-juice flavors. Unfortunately, it is behind a pay-wall (which I feel can be a way of controlling information) - but this NPR article talks just a bit about it. The NPR article is typical of a trend of rather poorly-sourced and investigated articles concerning “medicinal science” - where the (socio-politically deemed to be) demonized substances of the hour (be they pharmaceutical Opioids, or Nicotine, or any molecule considered to induce “states of psychological well being”) are reported on in a breathless (and all too often “brainless”) manner. Nothing terrifies us as do our own “pleasures”. :thinking:

I tire of (even NPR) thriving on vague and ominous references - that when followed, provide little in the way of distinct thus reliable source-information. A good example is NPR’s refererence to the recent Children’s Hospital of Wisconsin announcement that eight teenagers had been hospitalized with “seriously damaged lungs” over the month of July. These things are becoming click-bait feeding-frenzies - revealing the popularly infused fashionable socio-political prejudices of the day. Rationality cedes to hysterical moralizing rituals - all too often idiotically divorced from, and quite “orthagonal” to, serious and real pharmacology and toxicology.

.

All that being said, I try to take an active interest in my health (after 48 years of stoggies just about took me out completely around a year ago). It does seem that the various sugars that give tobacco as well as the synthetic flavorings their tastes are not free from involving a relatively large array of chemical by-products warranting legitimate cautions - particularly in cases where vaping coil-wick interfaces exceed ~200 *C. My new Pico 25 (in TC mode) is teaching me more specifics about temperatures reached to achieve desired (in my case, NET juice) “flavor”. Yes, (relatively so) less dangerous than tobacco combustion - but it seems that inhaling pleasureful “sugar fumes” (particularly with compromised lungs) is not without possible risks ?

I am discovering (from Pico 25 temperature data when using my Kayfun 5 RTA) that my Sigelei 30W mini (with 30 Hz PWM) provides it’s NET-juice calibrated pleasures by appearing to take coil-wick temperatures above 200 *C (:grimacing:) … however, it also seems (in the case of my NET-juice) it is most pleasureful (in the course of a puff) to come up from from below a coil-wick interface temperature of around 160 *C (where many of the sugar-related molecules likely begin to decompose). It seems as if newly “busted up” flavor molecules is a part of the pleasures surrounding perception of “flavor” ? If the (average) coil-wick interface temperature remains above that “temperature transition area”, then taste experience becomes “bland”.

Had not considered, but now realize the extent of chemical activities (also) proceeding while coil-wick interface cools between puffs, and remaining at elevated temperatures around (and to some extent below) 100 *C. Given that it makes a great deal of sense to restrict coil-wick interface temperatures to less than Nicotine boiling/decomposition ~247 *C, I’m not sure that I really understand blasting things with “giga-watts”. Sure, the coil-wick interface warms faster initially - but once (by some means) limited, the average coil-wick interface temperature still (at least it seems in the case of my NET juices) needs to cool-off back to lower temperatures before my next puff (in the interest of “flavor”) - and the larger the composite coil-mass, the longer that cool-down takes to occur. My personal approach is to minimize power and maximize Nicotine concentration. The multiplicative product of Watts times Nicotine (in mg/ml) that (in my own experience) satisfies is ~111. Increasing Nicotine concentration does not require waiting around for coils to cool off, and it appears to be cheaper as well as likely safer than ginormous brute-force battery power solutions !

4 Likes

Oh, so it is a real problem even at a very small dose then? I really didn’t know that.

@Raven-Knightly , I read your post with an unhealthy dose of scepticism at first, and drew a somewhat jerk - ish conclusion. For that, I am terribly sorry.

3 Likes

Check out Danish Pastry by Nature’s Flavors (NF), available at diyvaporsupply.com. it has a very nice bakery Cinnamon that is well-balanced and a bit in the background. If you’re going for a dessert Cinnamon effect, use it between 0.2% and 2% depending depending on how you like it to sit in a mix. It is a great flavor and also provides a Cream Cheese Icing aspect. It can go up to 3 or 4% as a standalone.

@Jhughes654021, I hit the reply button from your first post, but it didn’t link, so I’m tagging you :slight_smile:

2 Likes

When I post quoted excerpts from various sources about this or that, rather than trying to make a definitive sweeping statement as to the absolute truth or falsehood of (this or that) stated thesis, I am showing a bit of things that I am finding which may (possibly) interest others, and invite their scrutiny. It’s not unusual that the business of reading and assessing such information sources is not necessarily a simple/easy undertaking - for me or (most likely) for anybody else. Thus, such quoted snippets are references (of possible interest) - and not “pronouncements” regarding a purported absolute state of facts and things. An important distinction.

There is no “unhealthy dose of skepticism” in my book (as many claims rightly deserve cautious scrutiny) - but I very much appreciate and respect when folks (such as yourself) have the composure and wisdom to recognize there (may, possibly) be some things to learn from some considerations (and not just summary rejections) of information that (may, possibly) not be what we might preferably wish to see and hear - and graciously do not choose to attack the (in these cases with my own references, not particularly “partisan”) intentions, intelligence, and integrity of (merely curious and well meaning) “messengers”. I do believe that competent adults have natural rights to control their own bodies/minds - as well as to inform themselves and reach their own conclusions. Bless your heart for your thoughtful consideration. It is much appreciated ! :slightly_smiling_face:

4 Likes

Your last 3 paragraphs are quite interesting and have given me something to really think about. I have to admit I’ve tried to keep my vaping as simple and easy as possible. This is mainly due to not wanting to spend too much time and effort on it as time is limited. I typically take a juice I like, find a wattage range based on ohm and flavor and stay there. However, I think I’ll put some thought and effort into what you wrote. Thanks.

1 Like

Natbone, I can only speak with (some) certainty regarding my own experiences with dripping and tanking (my own derived) NET flavored e-juices - but it is true that (independent of coil resistance, assuming functional capability of any given mod used at such coil resistances) that the power (in Watts) dissipated in the coil is but a vehicle to reaching a particular range of temperature(s) in the coil-wick interface area(s). Some folks report that higher Nicotine concentrations are hard to tolerate. I personally find that up to ~18 mg/ml (or so) of Nicotine (base) is not problematic - if/when the wattage used to heat the coil(s) remains in a range of 6-8 Watts (or so). Other folks may have different impressions (?) Have (in my own experience) found that the “multiplicative product of Watts times Nicotine concentration” number remains relatively constant (based on my own impressions). Thus, I find that I am able to reduce Wattages and increase Nicotine concentrations.

That various chemical complexities (and some possibly resulting physiological liabilities) increase with increasing coil-wick interface temperatures (albeit short of “combustion”) seems to be very likely in general.

2 Likes

My Holy Grail from the beginning has been a Cinnamon Roll / Cinnamon Pastry. I’ve tried so many recipes, others and my own, but have yet to reach a level that’ll satisfy my craving. I just checked Nature Flavors site and they have two versions, one of which is organic. Have you tried the organic one? If so, how is it? Thanks.

2 Likes

I myself have (only) used Vapage’s (to my own lungs rather irritating) “Classic Tobacco” flavored e-juice, and subsequently explored (DIY) NET flavor extracts (preference for Virginia, Perique, and Cavendish blends). I can only “speak” to those particular (perceived through my own personal “prisms”) experiences.

Note that “organic” or not - and independent of whether the source of the Cinnamon is the widely distributed “Cassia” type, or the much more pricey “true” Ceylon Cinnamon - the alleged to be dangerous molecules to heat and inhale (“parent” molecules, and possibly their various reaction and/or decomposition products) seem to be Cinnamaldehyde (CAD) and 2-methoxycinnamaldehyde (2MOCA). There (may, possibly) not be any particular way around that (perhaps vexing) situation - save perhaps for limiting “vaporization” temps considerably (to what values I know not, and with what various aesthetic effects I also cannot anticipate).

An (additional) possible toxicological concern when flavor ingredients are extracted from (primarily) “Cassia” Cinnamon types is the presence of the (potentially) hepatotoxic pleasant tasting substance Coumarin (said to exist at up to 1% or so in “Cassia” Cinnamon types). Coumarin (and the serious liver damage that it can cause in certain individuals) is the reason that total Cinnamon content in servings of food sold is limited by regulation in certain European countries. Here is the Toxnet listing for Coumarin. Something to consider.

2 Likes

Organic is what I use. That’s also what they carry at diyvaporsupply. Easier to try from them since it’s only 2 bucks plus shipping. They also have Organic Diacetyl-free Extracts on the NF website, but it’s around $12 per 30ml for anything there, no smaller bottles. Use extracts, not concentrates!

2 Likes

It’s very good!

1 Like

“Divining” the (actual, applicable) meaning of the term “organic” seems to be a non-trivial exercise ?

3 Likes

Natbone was asking me about a specific product line. Thanks for jumping in with all the extra information!

3 Likes

“The chicken excretes (14)C-labeled coumarin similar to man and suggests that this species is most appropriate model for coumarin pharmacodynamic studies applicable to humans. Analysis of urine from infused and control side kidneys indicate negative coumarin tubular secretion.”

They beat out the Albino rats…who would’ve thunk! :slightly_smiling_face:

2 Likes

Thanks. DIY won’t ship to me and using a forwarder can be too expensive. NF will ship to me but it’s a bit pricey. Their cost for 30ml/1 oz is $14 but if I buy 240 ml it goes down to $3.60 per oz…that’s a shitload of danish!!

2 Likes

Have seen some weird animal-model stuff in perusing journals. “Rat Brain Homegenate” (the soupy end of said test-rodent brain, upon decapitation at the salient time of scientific interest), and “Chronic Spinal Dog” (intentionally made to be Morphine dependent pup, via constant intra-spinal fluid drip). Always thought that they would (still might ?) make great punk-band-names ? Hard to get much weirder than “Unicorn Puke” (e-juice brand), though. Even my "Free Range Non-GMO Corned Beef Shank” flavor recipe falls short … :stuck_out_tongue:

Coumarin has a wide variety of uses in industry, … Its uses include … a flavor/odor stabilizer in tobaccos … In primates, such as man and baboons, the major metabolite formed is 7-OHC (68-92%) … it t was shown that the pharmacokinetic profile of coumarin in baboons was similar to that in man … Coumarin is often considered as a pro-drug due to its rapid metabolism to form 7-OHC. … In 1954 coumarin was banned from use by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Previously, it had been used in foodstuffs, and since then there has been an ongoing dispute over its toxicity. The data on which the FDA made their decision were derived mainly from animal studies using rats. The preliminary results indicated that coumarin was a hepatotoxin.

Lots of info, and rather in-depth toxicological analysis of Coumarin (with regards to numerous critters) here.

2 Likes

Where are you? Aus? EU?

1 Like

From our summertime topic

3 Likes

Yep, and right now at 1800 the temp is only 102/39 degrees. My feet are a bit cold. I

3 Likes

I can check and see what it would cost to ship a bottle myself. If it’s less than shipping direct from a seller, I don’t mind a little effort. It’s likely, though, that it will still not be worth the price for something you’re not sure if you’ll like.
https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/tz_017.htm

2 Likes

Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it. There’s no rush to get some, I’m sure I’ll get some eventually. I’m trying not to buy any more flavors for awhile.

2 Likes