In cooking we use baking soda. I wonder if it’s safe to vape? Could you just use it and not vape. Just observe colour changes.
It’s an interesting question, the hard bit is measuring pH. How can we create 2 identical substances with a lowered pH and the only variable being nic and no nic. Mmmm. How much baking soda do you need to add to get to the same level. I can only recommend litmus paper strips.
The thing is we can look at it the other way. If someone could point us to a recipe that they steep without nic that gives a mallard reaction, then we can conclusively say it is not a requirement. And to me I don’t know the answer it’s I have heard people doing it that way.
Does anyone cure/steep/mallard react before adding nic? If so could you provide some details of the recipe in which you do so.
Until that time I’m with you it’s safer as a general rule to add nic, as you showed. Keep me updated if you do anything it’s interesting to isolate this. I’ll put it on my to do list but might be awhile, that’s if you don’t get there first.
Aha, I just had a look at your test. You have everything at 70/30 ratio try 50/50 in the equation. PG is alkaline, pH of 10. so adds alkalinity itself. There might be something too it.
Like I said I’m in no rush but will get it done eventually. Maybe we can share the load. We could both test different variables, etc. I don’t really know what the benefit of this will be, but I like this kind of stuff anyways. It might even help the 0mg nic vapers. Keep me posted and I’ll update you as I get closer.
As I side, but related - This article https://www.eliquidusa.org/ecig-news/understanding-ph-level-of-eliquids
says its important to measure pH when making eliquids. What’s the go there I don’t see much talk of pH around these parts. Obviously adding some sparkle to fruits with sour, etc but I think they put too much importance on it and it’s vague. They assume that neutral is good. interesting.
I’m a 0nic vaper…so I’ll watch for your test results. But please remember a lot of those with nic darken in color because nic itself darkens quickly once exposed to air. And I do know there is a huge difference in flavors from the 1 week mark to the 4-8, even when the color doesn’t change or changes very little.
If it’s not the Mallaird reaction, then it must be the blending of flavors itslf changes the flavor over longer times maybe?
The flavoring themselves over time darken color a lot in most cases. Wonder why that happens?
All mallard reactions I’ve observed darken. This does not mean it’s the rule. Your 4-8 week mark is very interesting. What PG/VG ratios do you use in those mixes out of interest.
I’m going to have to find some kind of test that confirms or denies the reaction without a spectrum thingy. Brain not working. Mass spectrometer, there it goes. I’ll do some research. There are some great test strips out there for lots of things. That would be cool.
I believe the zero juice you vape is percieved to have “steeped” as over 4-8 weeks volatiles have slowly escaped(plastic is semi porous)also streething occurs when smelling and dripping or filling. The liquid do not just darken but evolve and improve creams become richer flavors more complex and robust. They also darken in different hues dependant on flavors and percentages some turn pink or yellow or orange or common for deserts an amber. Based on my experiences it is not just nic darkening because i have added a Seed (deep amber in colour) added new flaves and that seeded juice instantly becomes a different hue and then steeped into a yellow. To be honest I am confused as heck by comments on this thread because. Do you vape 0Mg custards? Creams? If so do they turn amber? You are correct the flavors themselves “steep” my FA vienna cream was an amber, orange after several years on the shelf, Cap marshmallow too. Volition suggests PG is alkaline this may be the reason though the process is very very slow.
@mixologist13, Yes I do steep mostly custards and cream, and they do darken for the most part. At 6-8 weeks most are either a pale to dark gold or amber. I have a few that don’t change color much, mostly fruit blends.
Fruit flavors do not change as much or yellow or “pinken” as quickly.
Depending on flavors and percentages some can stay clear for almost 2 years. Banana cream is only part cream so % of actual cream is probably low.
I have my testers stashed for evaluation
I will further run similiar tests
I will wait a year if i have to prove my suspicions
I do know higher percentages of both flavor and nic seem to accelerate darkening(milliard?)
Too much the process will accelerate and the liquid will “die” (too dark)
Goldilox zone of percentages will cause a liquid to cure more readily in first few months and then process seems to slow and liquid stabalizes.
This is of course only based off of my experiences
And yours may differ. I do however consider this a science and want answers lol
It does seem that the mixers who stated they added nic after steeping are not reading, have disappeared or never existed in the first place.
Put your hands up if you add nic after steeping please! Anyone?
Doing some research on malliard reaction currently! Fun fact chemists believe it was the malliard reaction that was responsible for the shapes on the shroud of Turin. Seems it wasn’t Jesus, just starch.
First let me say that i am happy you were able to drop Nic altogether This is my ultimate goal and reason for trying to figure out how to make Zero Liquids steep, cure in the same fashion as nic liquids do.
That being said i see light gold in your pic, Not Amber. Will all liquids turn Amber,certainly not, but from my experiences deserts heavy in creams and custards will.
I made a sample of a 6 month old Zero Nic custard and it looked similiar to yours. I believe the flavorings themselves (vanillas, custards) added a tinge of color and it got only very slightly more golden as time went on.
Far right: over 2 years old custard. This colour is Ideal in my mind. The liquid has cured to deep amber and stabalized
Second from right: again 2+ year old cheesecake. Colour not quite as amber (different flavors different finished colour)
Second from the left: 1.5 year old peanut butter
Definately amber (thin square bottle may be giving appearance of lighter hue)
Far Left: Sugar cookie . dead juice. Pooched. Nasty.
Overflavored. Total flavor % too high.
very interesting topic , i am one of the people @Volition speaks of that doesnt add nic until steeping process is finished , and since ive started doing this my liquids stay clear until nic is added unless the flaves i use have color to them but they dont change much either until nic is added , my understanding is that the darkening to a amber like color is due to nicotine but id have to say ive never tested to see , this is a great topic and one im sure has lots of opinions
I didn’t read everything on this thread but I am one who steeps juices w/o Nicotine and I don’t have a problem at all w/ them. Nicotine if anything gives you the false pretense that it has steeped d/t it’s " golden" color as it degrades. I mix often and so I get tired of trashing batches just bc the nicotine is 3 months old in it. Some flavors will change w/ steeping.
I will add that I use a magnetic mixer and so a few things are going on…some portion of the base or batch has been heated so that it’s thin enough to stir on the mixer. So heat and then oxygen via the stirrer. My batches sit open to air for just enough time to cool. I try to not leave them open very long unless it’s a flavor that has ethyl alcohol in it and then well the heat will take care of most of that. Anyhow small molecules are releasing and changing flavors are binding to the base. It may seem to take longer ( I typically steep everything for 1 month ) this is w/ exception on extracts and vg based flavors sometimes those can take up to 2-3 months to really shine. I also mix Max Vg so a lengthy steep is/can be necessary.
I dunno got no clue , but I do know my juice will be transparent on day 1 and after a given time it’s colored could be pale yellow could be a light oak this is w/o nicotine. But good question must be something w/ the flavor
This thread officially has me more confused than when i started it. So if im clear with what your saying. I can make all my liquids at zero. Heat,stir, shake and or USC them, breathe off alcohol briefly and they will steep.
Have you done this with custard?? Not sure if you read about my test or saw the pics but the results beg to differ.
Also if and when you do add nic after “steeping” do the flavors tend to change afterwards over time?
Well batches do change over time regardless …it’s an ever changing thing. You know a juice day 1 is guna taste different on day 45 could resemble what it’s like as a SnV but it’s changing. Flavor molecules are meant to have variations we all have learned soft fragile top notes are leaving our bottles everytime we expose them to oxygen…so if we look just at the concentrate side of things and thats 1,000 x more concentrated than our batches that are diluted w/ pg/vg we should expect it to change.
I can do a custard test and watch it. I don’t really use much VCV1 is that the one your speaking of and if so what are the ranges you’re using it in ? 2-4% I am usually around the 1-2% should I use it. I can do a steep and then I’ll know for sure.
I add nicotine after steeping I don’t taste anything different bc I don’t taste my nicotine I’m not saying you are saying that either but I don’t believe I taste or realize a change tbo.
I just seen your pictures impressive to know you’ve kept them that long !
I feel flavors w/ AP,AC DA steep to a color those that don’t change a lot for me even w/ a long steep are fruits I have some fruits ( no diketones ) and they’re clear as crystal and are fabulous…they’ve aged there not tart still have a crisp to them and a lot of them were Vg based flavors. So I do feel it largely has to do w/ what the flavor has w/in it as to what color it will bear overtime.
The pics further up that show the test of RF SC VC
At 2%. 1 30ml 3mg, 1 30ml Zero(control), 1 30ml zero( w additives). When vaped there is a clear undeniable difference and improvement in flavor in the 3mg liquid compared to both 0mg Liquids.
I heat steeped all three and shook the hell out of them. I have streethed them occasionally. The zeros have not changed and its been 6 weeks…
Well I happen to have VC SC RF and I used it really low didn’t matter the batch was golden steeped from the 12/12 this one I managed to put nicotine in for some reason must of wanted to test it as a SnV I really don’t know. I tried it today and it wasn’t great needs more custard. I think I used it at like 0.5% in a mix.
I’ll have to look around and see if I any other VC SC RF batches steeping atm.
I personally feel something is happening to 0 nic mixes, because most of mine go from clear or mostly clear to yellow or gold and the flavor does change to be much better between 4-12 weeks.
I’m not sure what is happening or blending, but there is a difference to my taste buds. I mostly vape custards and desserts. I will love any scientific discoveries, this subject has been controversial for years
This is my ultimate goal and reason for trying to figure out how to make Zero Liquids steep, cure in the same fashion as nic liquids do.
