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347

Your absolutely right mistakes can and do happen and sometimes the wrong thing gets sent… the part I found disturbing though was the suggestion that it might be mislabeled as 100mg. With nicotine its essential that the label is correct and the take a picture so we can guess freaked me out as you shouldnt be guessing the nic based on an image. The wrong product sent is less disturbing since its labelled correctly I would know what I was dealing with when I received it and would handle it with the appropriate care.

The changes to your product line are great @VaporBase its great to see that you indeed listening to the feedback :slight_smile:

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348

In a situation like this, I think the most important thing that should happen is the vendor figuring out what went wrong so they can make sure it never happens again. If it were my company I’d want to get the product returned ASAP so I could verify whether the product was mislabeled or an incorrect fulfillment. Maybe rather than asking for a picture, send the correct item along with a post-paid envelope or box for returning the wrong/bad one?

Worthless hindsight advice now, but that’s what I’d say was the best response to a serious nic concentration (anything over 24 mg/ml being serious IMO) complaint.

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349

I am all for second chances and I do understand just how difficult running a small business can be. Been there done that.

I also appreciate that you are coming here and explaining your side of the issues that have come up.

I am going to say this yet again I personally think using the good folks here on ELR willing to give you direct feedback the opportunity to test what works best for them by making pure PDO available for them to mix with as they see fit could be a big win for you. There are a very wide range of very experienced mixers here and all with very different needs.

I can tell you in my time here on ELR I have learned a lot and I have seen several vendors take the time to listen and learn from the folks here. In doing so they have made many improvements in there business that they may or may not have ever decided to do without the input provided by the members here.

My personal opinion is all of us vapors are truly Guinea pigs of sorts as we really have no long term data yet. I also know you have such a wide variety of people here that like there mixes anywhere from 100%vg to 50/50 or even more PG that I truly believe this place we all call home offers you a very unique platform to learn from.

There are many of us here that are PG sensitive and becoming more so as time goes on. In my particular case I have went from 30PG/70VG to only being able to tolerate 10/90 in less than 1 year. I fear this will continue to get worse so I do think PDO might be the answer.

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350

I can appreciate your desire to figure out your issues. After nearly 6 weeks, and 2 fairly major mistakes on your part, why should I lift a finger to help? The only reason for me to do so that has been offered at this point is a possible discount on a future order. From my point of view, I have been more than understanding and still have not received what I ordered, regardless of it being a free sample or otherwise.
I do understand that mistakes get made, I have done my part in being patient and the “second chance” was given, and you failed in it as well.
So give me a reason that I should give you a third chance, and I may do just that. But I need a compelling reason at this time to do so.

Regards,
Brad

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351

I saw I was tagged above:)

Just saying I have read this, and am paying close attention. Evan is new here so be gentle, I really like the idea of working on this more and hammering it out. I do think, @VaporBase has the best intentions. I remember when I first started… phew I learned a lot the first year. 3 different sites, extremely high turn over in staff, and constantly changing how orders were procrssed all were need to get even close to where we are now.

Our in house testing has shown PDO works great, plus I know some bigger companies are using PDO and loving it. Now I have no played with Vapor Base myself yet (remember I am a flavor guy :stuck_out_tongue:) but Evan has been kind enough to offer me a gallon for free to test in our equipment. I plan to use this and our commercial equipment to make a batch of eliquid. We will run full lab testing, and maybe a bit of taste testing :wink:

Right now I belive Evan is the only person who is selling it as a base. We sadly can’t resell it due to a contract restriction.

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352

1,3-PDO suppresses the flavor of certain compounds differently than PG and VG.

http://www.google.com/patents/WO2013134607A1?cl=en

" it was found that certain classes of flavor compounds are better suppressed in the presence of 1,3-propanedioS, including, for example, unsaturated and saturated aldehydes (C2- C12), saturated and msaturated acids (C6-C12), saturated and unsaturated alcohols (C6-C12), ketones (C7-C10), ethyl esters, butyl esters, and aromatic hydrocarbons. Specific flavor compounds suppressed in the presence of 1,3-propaiiediol include, for example, decanoic acid, caprylic acid, caproic acid, propionic acid, acetaldehyde, butyraldehyde, propionaldehyde, hexanal, hexenal, heptanal, heptenal, octanal, citral, ethyl butyrate, ethyl caprate, ethyl decanoate, ethyl propionate, methyl butyrate, ethyl methyl butyrate, butyl butyrate, ethauol, octanol, hexanol, hexenol, heptenoi, decanoL henzakiehyde, nonanone, and octanone."

Benzaldehyde (almond, cherry, etc) is seriously compromised by 1,3-PDO even at 7% w/v in my tests.

I use 1,3-PDO but definitely do longer term steep testing whenever I feel a flavor concentrate contains the aldehydes or esters that may be suppressed by the fixative action.

Ibid: “However, it was unexpectedly found that inclusion of 1,3-propanediol uniquely modifies the flavor profile of food products or food ingredients even when 1,3- propanediol is included in such low amounts (e.g., about 0.1 to about 2 weight percent). In one aspect, the 1,3-propanediol is included in an amount such that it does not itself contribute flavor to the product. In this respect, 1 ,3~propanediol functions in the beverage and food products as a flavor adjuvant, by which is meant that the 1,3-propanediol affects the flavor or perception of flavor in the food product while not acting as a flavoring ingredient itself, in one aspect, inclusion of 1,3-propanediol results in modifying flavor release of flavor compounds in the food or beverage product. In one form, the modification of flavor release comprises suppressing the release of certain flavor compounds and, more generally, classes of flavor compounds in the product,”

I posted this from my mobile so mind any errors.

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353

Also wanted to mention that 1,3-PDO at super diluted w/v suppresses the bitter note of most artificial potent sweeteners and I’ve tested it with great response with Reb-A and monkfruit extract. Per this patent:

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2822400A1?cl=en

Note that we are talking 5PPM dilutions, well below the DIY useful minimum so you want to super dilute the 1,3-PDO in another solvent (VG) at around 0.5% and then use that at a very low w/v composition (0.1% to start).

Also, including some ethanol seems to help unlock some of the suppression of flavor, but I’ve only played with small values and don’t have any particular numbers to report there.

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354

Top shelf info as always @A_B_Dada. One thing seems clear …there is a longer path of adoption with PDO/VB. Downstream we may have a superior eJuice result but apparently we may be re-thinking all our existing DIY recipes. All hard fought and won (steep times/patience and ingredient costs) over years for many. That’s a real stumbling block when you ask someone here to make the change.

Like all new technologies, this flavor technology may prove superior in the future, and PG/VG mixers might get referred to as “old-school” by 2018. Hah! A badge of honor here on ELR :wink: …but commercially this could translate into a loss of business to not spend the time to investigate and deliver stable PDO-based eJuice which may have real health benefits for folks with PG sensitivity, or just better taste than old-school mixes (removing the bitter taste of artificial sweeteners?)

This thread is just a business meeting. However informal, it’s working. We should all be punching the time clock at VBHQ :wink: Much solid work here …and like many business meetings, someone gets handed their @ss. I’ve been an entrepreneur also for decades and “The Buck Stops Here” is forever true. I always joke if you look up the word “lesson” on Wikipedia it should show an illustration of a boot being applied to someone’s rear. Learning is quite often painful, but if you don’t task risks you’ll never accomplish a thing. That swift kick is always just around the corner.

Processes by definition are never hard set, but instead focused on improving. This lesson was public and deserved, but this is also how Life works …and business. It’s actually refreshing to see Evan pull the shoe out his crack and see how mission-critical even the lowest-level mailroom tasks can impact his whole operation. I’m feeling the pain and flashing back to multiple rectal footwear removal procedures of my own …it’s hard to spectate. In his own words it’s clear he gets it.

I have one word of advice …alcohol. Not only does it sterilize it also speeds recovery, and on this Forth of July it may actually be mandatory (!) Hey wait and according to the above information also help reverse the muting of flavors we’re reading about here …back to Vodka 1% …Thanks again Sensei for the Knowledge drop …that’s the Droid we were lookin’ for :microscope:

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355

I like PDO because of its suppression qualities. I don’t think it hinders if you go into a mix with your eyes open.

PDO has made my coffee flavors 500% better. It has taken citrus blends to a new level.

It tends to cause failure with any of the popular aldehydic compounds (vanillin, cinnamon, almond, etc) so I don’t use it much in those blends but they’re already fine with the old school solvents anyway. If a full VG blend is too thick, there’s are many non-PG solvents and diluents we can use to thin it out and not need to rely on PDO for reducing viscosity.

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356

:slight_smile: Maybe finally I can mix a coffee flavor that doesn’t taste like a$$. :smiley:
Very valuable info A_B_Dada, thanks.
B

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357

in response to Evan and LL and the errors…does anyone remember NicotineRiver and their early mistakes? and look at them (him) now…just saying…

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358

Vaping (dripping) a commercial “Roasted Coffee” right now… good on my rayon wicked Ti

359

Without doubt there are good commercial coffee mixes out there, however, after many attempts at creating a coffee mix I could live with, I gave up. My flavor stash has many many coffee flavors in it. Maybe when a source for straight PDO USP grade becomes more available, I can start that search again.

360

Thanks for the clarification on being able to positively titrate VB for nicotine content. :wink: I stand corrected and edited my post.

Just curious? Has any anyone here on ELR titrated VB yet? It would be comforting to know if the mg/ml of nicotine in VB liquid base is indeed consistently accurate. :thinking:

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361

Thank you for the share! I appreciate you taking the time to help get me back on the right path.

362

I was hoping others that ordered a higher strength would chime in.I have 3mg and the test is only good for +/ - 1 , so that doesn’t really help much. I will test my 3mg but I am sure it is close as my consumption has not changed and I am still using VB.
@Kinnikinnick
EDIT: Test came out at out 3.083mg
test used 1ml Vapor Base , 15ml distilled water , 6 drops Bromothymol Blue , I used .19ml of the Sulfuric acid before the color changed to yellow.

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363

These are excellent starts/continuances…thanks for the updates and definitely thanks for working with us, Evan.
I will continue to mix with what I have and I will continue to report my findings.
I am still a volunteer to anything you want to throw at me (us).
I vaped my first mix today and as soon as the kids disappear for the night, I plan to give details.

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364

Thank you very much for all of your fantastic knowledge on the PDO. This is exactly what I am finding. It will be a learning curve on which flavors work with it and don’t, and this is invaluable on a good starting point. I can see it helping with coffee, citrus, and pineapple. Obviously this is a great product with acidic flavors, and not as much with others. I still think it might work with other milder flavors as well in much smaller percentages. @A_B_Dada have you noticed it affecting/reducing flavor fade with citrus flavors at all?

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365

Yep, I use PDO to take the edge off citrus flavors like MF orange and grapefruit.

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366

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