A PUBLIC and Civil Discussion on the Rules

This is a great example of how much a flair to your avatar matters. I hadn’t thought of that, good point.
As I’ve seen mentioned somewhere above, we could keep the rowdy posts in a special section where people are warned beforehand that they might run into explicit material.
I would like to stress the word ‘might’.
Just because something is allowed doesn’t necessarily make it mandatory.
I live in Amsterdam and am allowed to smoke dope, that doesn’t mean I’m stoned 24 hours a day.

I must say that I’m really impressed with the way this conversation has been going. A lot of different opinions here but at the same time there is a lot of understanding for other peoples point of view.
Which is very important if we want to find a middle ground.

If only the Democrats and Republicans in the US could be this grown up and talked to each other, really listening to other peoples point of view without hurling insults at each other a lot could be accomplished.
Or the Brexit crowd in the UK (not wanting to single out the US here, just an example :sweat_smile:)

I have one question left. I’ve read about respecting the OP’s post by not derailing it but is it allowed to derail your own thread? :sunglasses:

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Ive not been asked or considered that. :confused:

Maybe we need a separate derail thread.

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I was just kidding trying to keep it light.
I wouldn’t dream of derailing my own thread :stuck_out_tongue:

Did you sleep?

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Well i expected this to go a bit differently so i took WAY to much caffeine.

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100% this…

p.s. Is it just obscenity or things like Gun Threads as well? Different parts of the world have different views on gun ownership. I can self moderate myself and not visit the thread or just skip over discussions in other threads on subject matter.

If a poster offends someone, offer an ignore button.The high majority of posts on here are replies, where you can’t see the post, unless you click the arrow, when this is done. Very few seems to quote, which would be the only way the offended would then see a reply.

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I dont think that we have had any problems with that thread since it was moved to the Saloon, i cant see any reason that i would remove it.

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Wasn’t saying it should be removed. Pointing out it is not just swearing and images that people can find offensive, Where does a website aimed at 18+ products draw the line? 18 year + adults can self moderate with tools too help.

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And yet we are here because that didnt happen. Daath expressed his thoughts on where what belongs so now we are going to go with it.

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I appreciate you thoughts! Thank you for sharing them! :slightly_smiling_face:

I actually had just edited my post prior to reading yours. I realized that I forgot to say that while I find the adult humor entertaining, I appreciate it in the places that it’s supposed to be. Because as you said, it has spilled out into the entire forum. Which has turned the focus away from the main reason we are here. And that isn’t what I came here for. It was always, to me, just a fun bonus to have a bit of adult humor.

While we may not see eye-to-eye on every point, I agree with most of what you are saying. We can all work together to find common ground and a solution that works!

Thank you so much for your input!

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an 8 year old can’t enter a vape shop here either, but you’ll have a bloody hard time to find in vape shops what you find in these threads sometimes

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Indeed.

We can have exploding human being beings, state torture, mass murder assisting devices being used willy nilly but should strongly avoid nipples :slight_smile: Ok, I am pushing it a bit but I’ll let it out as this has been tickling me from the use of PG-13 as guidance.
Some would see that as extraterritoriality of US norms, but hey, at least in is not export legislation .

Forgive me if I missed a post or two in the middle of this discussion and this has been covered.

For the record, from the point of view of a new user, I have not yet encountered anything that I find out of place here in my month of lurking, not that I have been searching either. Have there been moments when I encountered people with different views on the world, certainly. Nobody was being a dick about it though.
Also from the point of view of a new user I find the recipe side of things much more useful than the forum side of things when it comes to actual mixing. But I probably need to look better.

That being said, neither nipples nor guns have a place in a flavour mixing discussion, unless it is Mother’s milk or Gun Oil (someone must have) flavour, I guess, and even then the image is probably better left to the imagination.

I think the current policy of keeping the main forums to the point and the saloon reasonable to be a sensible one. I am not sure how much to the point should thread be kept, but personal conversation should probably not become the main traffic of a thread. A couple of off topic but called for replies, on the other hand, are probably beneficial to the feel of the forum.

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My 0.02 (late to the party as always).

I don’t find bad language (unless used in personal attacks) to be offensive.

I don’t read threads that I don’t want to read. Bluenose mentioned the Gun Thread…I don’t read that because whilst it doesn’t offend me, I don’t “get it”. That’s a geographical thing.

Derailments: I love banter, I love fun. Sometimes threads start off this way but then go so far downhill that it starts to get right on my tits and I just give up reading them.

I think my beliefs on this subject have been adequately covered by several people whilst I was sleeping, so I won’t start wittering on.

Actually, one last thing…stop being snitchety people you’re adults ffs - if you have a problem with somebody, drop them a pm and hash it out…instead of going on a personal vendetta “flag” rampage and causing the mods a shit load of unneccessary work.

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I know when I scope out a new forum I’m never impressed by either extreme. When I see posts telling another member he or she should not be posting just links, they need to post some verbiage because I said so, It’s a turn off. I see being nagged by church lady the whole time I’m on the site. On the other hand when I read threads with people giggling endlessly about titties and penises, I think I’ve entered the Howard Stern juvenile realm. I’m here so I must not find either extreme rampant. Good things to review however.

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Hopefully this isn’t derailing but I thought clarification of a couple things would be beneficial to everyone.

There’s a post called “What are you listening to” should we be posting radio edits?

There’s another about video games. I have posted a couple of clips of my highlights without thinking about if it could offend. Example, I post video of a game I’m playing involving guns where the object is to kill other players. If I post a video where I’ve blown an animated character’s head into a million peices is that something I shouldn’t be doing?

You may not post anything digital that belongs to someone else without permission. You may not post descriptions of, links to, or methods for stealing someone’s intellectual property (software, video, audio, images), or for breaking any other law.

^ is this a rule that will actually be enforced moving forward? Are Memes, GIFs, links to articles outside of ELR and the links to songs okay without permission? There’s a thread discussing Kodi, and we’ve talked about Modding video game consoles which essentially fall under stealing IP. Is it okay to keep those threads alive or should we let them go to the graveyard?

Are threads among willing participants discussing Politics and religion okay as long as they remain civil? Or is the danger of them going sour enough to have a blanket ban on them?

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I know this has been touched on but since you replied to me I want to reply back.

Yes, I’ve totally derailed threads. I’ve also posted content in places it doesn’t belong. And I mentioned that in the post that you quoted, as well as the fact that I’m trying not to let that be a habit anymore.

The reason a review with adult humor is different than derailing a thread with it is exactly what Ken said:

If someone is looking for answers to a question and they have to wade through a bunch of poop jokes or sex talk to find info in a thread, it can be a big hindrance/annoyance. If someone wants to read a review on a mod and they see at the very top of it saying “VapeyMama’s Naughty Reviews”, they can very easily say “um… Pretty sure I don’t want to read a naughty review” and they can go find another review of the same product elsewhere. Or they can say “huh! A naughty review? That sounds like it might be entertaining!” and continue reading.

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I took a break last night. Now that I have more help, I needed a mental health day and to get some studying done, which has sadly fallen by the wayside in all of this. It’s been a really interesting read this morning (and some of last night, I couldn’t help myself :wink: ).

I’m really glad that this is being discussed and it’s remained generally civil. I’ve lived here coming up on three years and I’ve been a moderator for almost two of them. I love ELR. I have laughed and cried and raged with (and yes, sometimes at or about) the people and situations that have come up here. I’ve done my fair share of virtual hugging, playing, head shaking, eye rolling, and face-palming. I’ve been blessed and I’ve been frustrated. And through it all, my goal here has never wavered…to help. Help new people learn mixing, help old people find a new place, help spammers learn they don’t have a place, help silly people change their titles, help vendors get their “Vendors” thread started or post a giveaway, help people work through their differences. I’m obviously not perfect, and I sincerely apologize to anyone I’ve failed along the way, but my heart has and always will be as a servant of ELR.

Now, I’m a Libertarian in theory. Ideally, people would be capable of governing themselves and police (or politicians or moderators) wouldn’t be needed. But in practice, anarchy typically eventually devolves into chaos. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that some people will never be capable of self-moderation or self-governance. Those people exist in our world and, yes, on our forum—or at least they will. The rules are there because sometimes things need to be spelled out. As an “officer” of ELR, I need to be able to point to “the rules” and say, “This is what we at ELR are about, and this is what our forum looks like. If you are unable or unwilling to remain given this fact, then this is not the place for you.” And that is what has led us to this. We had rules, but they weren’t really rules they were guidelines. That worked three years ago when there were only 20 or so of us and we all kinda just got along and peacefully co-existed. That will never happen in a group of 100s or 1000s, and to hope for or expect it is foolish. Now things need to be a little more solid in order for me (and now the other moderators) to be able to effectively do our jobs.

So where does that leave me? What is my opinion on the matter? It’s this…I. don’t. care. Really, truly, I don’t. And not because I don’t care about you guys; I care more than many of you will likely ever know. This, for me, was never about WHAT the rules were, it was about having them in the first place and me knowing what they were. If the rule is “anything” is permissible (anything in quotes because of what I say in the last paragraph of this now incredibly lengthy post), then anything goes. If the rule is nothing worse than G-rated, then nothing goes. And this is not just for the people who are here now, but for the people who will come here in the future.

For the record, I’m also not suggesting the rules be numerous and every detail strictly defined in the most impressive of legalese. I realize that there will always be some room for interpretation and that aggressive restrictions would be stifling. Contrary to how it might appear sometimes, I am really not an authoritarian tyrant. Shades of grey will exist and where they don’t, people will find a way to blur the line. The problem occurs for me when there is no black or white at all by which to compare—when everything is muddled and indiscernible.

I answer first to Lars, because this is his site and second to the people of ELR, because that is what I chose when I agreed to be moderator and admin. The one thing I cannot and will not do, because I have to answer to myself at some point, too, is exist in chaos. Should the mods be fired and all rules completely thrown out the window (which is highly unlikely, I know, but I’ve seen it before), I would have to walk away. It would rip my heart to pieces to do it, but I’ve watched a similar ship sink once already—I can’t do it again. I care about ELR as a whole too much to hang out while it implodes.

So, whether Lars chooses what the rules are or he allows the majority to set the course, barring a total breakdown of order, I’ll continue doing my job to the utmost of my abilities. While I can’t promise I’ll be perfect, I promise I’ll always try to be open and fair.

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That explains a lot. I have great respect for the libertarian mindset. I theory, I prefer it. I think however, if totally unmanaged, a strong flavor of “good ole boys club” becomes predominant and daily activities devolve into something akin to Lord of the Flies. Unfortunate realities.

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A few more thoughts more on the topic of suggestions regarding the rules…

Keep in mind as you are discussing what should and should not be allowed in “public areas” that these posts are very much public…meaning they’re indexed by google and often get top rankings when people are searching for vape and DIY related questions. Either Lars as leader or you all as a group, have to decide how the public face of ELR appears.

As I was responding to a note from Ken in that other thread, I was reminded that I had this idea last night. An open group can be set up and the Saloon restricted only to members of said group. This would make it crystal clear that everyone who goes there is there by choice (eliminating any accidental stumbling upon topics there) and that subject matter posted is for consenting, non-offendable adults. The con to this is that nothing in there would appear in the “Latest” feed to anyone who is not a member, afaik. I can look more into this to verify if that is the case, should this route be something worth considering. This is mostly a problem for @VapeyMama’s reviews should they be relegated to that area. Their exposure and audience would potentially be significantly lessened.

The rules as they stand don’t specifically mention “no swearing” so unless that’s also on the table as something that needs to be discussed, I think the “Obscenity” in the title should more likely be “the Rules of What is Considered Obscene”.

I’m sure I had other thoughts and ideas as I was reading last night, but I don’t remember what they were right now. :no_mouth:

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I think I’ve said more than a lot of you wanted to hear. I have no more, other than to say that with rules enforcement must come less resistance from staff to actually ban repeat offenders. ‘Repeat’ implies that you’ve been told multiple times that you are in violation of an ordinance, yet have chosen to disregard more than once. People like this exist all over, and probably here too. If they are only hand-slapped, not only will they adapt to the fact that they’ll never be truly punished, but that’s also telling everyone else that they can do it, too.

I understand your reluctance to take such measures, but sometimes it becomes necessary. I think everyone understands that.

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