SEE the little Black dot with the i in it, look right above it
so the calculations were correct by the information given in the flavor of choice. That was my point only
Thanks to this post, I now have another PG-free Grape to use! Glad you got the proper specific gravity. I was about to post the same screenshot of the data sheet!
“Non Flavor Ingredients:
Alcohol (used as a carrier to dissolve flavor ingredients), Water, Citric Acid”
Depends on how you look at it. I think it’s obvious that the % is by Volume. I Mix by weight and only count drops to see how off-or-on my drops are per bottle. So I like displaying my recipe calculator formatted like this. Looking at it this way it’s clear-as-day, no confusion whatsoever.
Plus all bottles drop different weights per drop. You have to draw the line somewhere to have a functioning calculator, you just can’t account for everything.
Well, this is all news to me. I will look over the ELR calculator and run some ‘fact check’ tests recipes and see what results I get. This will be on the ‘to-do’ list for next week, as no time right now, but I will check it out. I am most curious. -However you can see right away about my argument about MSDS sheets and the error issues. one post states the MSDS for the Grape as: 1.773 and @Laberythm has it as 0.88, so that sort of makes my argument for me …
I can not update the data on ELR calculator side.
I was stating what is listed in this database under that particular flavor entry ( not “You”), yes the entered one is from 2012 the other one is newer, maybe a formula change (?) because the combustible hazards are even different different
The only way of doing this and keeping it as accurate as possible for your personal mixing is the option under the settings/profile menu.
There you can click “use manufacturer specific gravity” if that’s enabled it will use it. If not marked it won’t use it.
but here’s the issue, you would then need to go in and set the weight yourself for every flavor, otherwise it takes the default of 1.0038 which it does anyways for the flavors that don’t have info from the sheets.
This does open two problems so, if you let’s say want 3% lemonade, in cases where ppl use the manufacturer weight, this recipe will be different from yours.
Now we can argue that .o2 g is not much to notice, but unfortunately for some flavors it’s noticeable. 2 drops or .04g of rich cinnamon will taste different then 1 drop - .o2 g of the same flavor.
It only matters when you sharing your recipes, if not, then using option A or B is irrelevant. Just pick what you want to do, over organize everything and be accurate down to the tiniest drop, or laid back and have the numbers put in the calculator by somebody else.
No right or wrong here. But if you pick route b you will have to constantly check msds for changes and apply that, if not you have the same problem as described here lol
Yes. Your observation is exactly correct. This is where I ran into big problems with the ELR system. As per my first post describing when @ChemicalBurnVictim and I were communicating about some NETs that have very high density ingredients, immediately this issue surfaced.
I mix with a scale accurate to 1/10 gram. I really see no reason to mix by volume, constantly dealing with SG conversion issues.
I don’t see how .NETs have anything to do with the ELR calculator. Just by the very nature of what they are. They can vary like night and day. Unless using the same batch, even bringing them up in the same sentence let alone recipe seems like where the confusion might be.
The weight vs volume thing didn’t come up while discussing NETs necessarily. It was just in a conversation that started out with NETs, but then went in to recipe sharing and then a very similar discussion to what is going on in this thread.
You are right they don’t have anything to do with the calculator. NETs were only used as an example of how there are built in errors when using a volumetric conversion system to get a precise engineered way of mixing repeatable formulas. Another example is pointed out in this thread about the CAP Grape where the SG is quoted as being anywhere from 0.88 to 1.77 So whether it is a synthetic CAP grape or a NET you have to deal with the problem. There is no way around it. The problem is part and parcel of doing things that way.
Yea using simple weight is good. Since it’s all relative. As long as you update the precise weight used for new test batches, if it tastes good. It should upscale to a big batch just fine.
If I could afford to buy 1 repeatable battery operated pippette @ $500.00 per unit for volume mixing, I’d just buy store juice to vape. But I like doing this stuff, it’s an awesome hobby.
I will still maintain that for the purposes of sharing and replicating recipes, the best way to go is mixing by volume and everybody just agreeing to use the standard of 1 g= 1 ml. Whether or not that specific gravity is accurate, if everybody is working with that same assumption, then we will all be mixing the same recipe the same way. When you’ve got 90% of the people already using 1g=1ml as the standard, and then someone from the 10% that are using actual SG wants to make the recipe, they will get a different outcome. If you share recipes with %wt, then depending on if you mix max VG or 60/40 PG/VG, you’ll be getting different outcomes. If I were to ask someone to mix up a single flavor test of Black for Pipe at 3% by weight, but they’re using max VG where I’ve tested it with 60/40, we can both mix up a 10g total weight sample, but I’ve added 8.61 ml of my PG/VG, and they’ll add 7.7 ml of VG. While both 10% by weight, my sample will be 3.37% by volume, and theirs will be 3.75% by volume. In order for sharing recipes in % by weight to work, you’ll have to get everyone to agree to use the same base if you want the final juice to taste the same. It’s just much easier to share recipes with the flavors as % by volume and agreeing to a standard of 1g=1ml. If the actual SG of the Black for Pipe is .89, it won’t matter. We will both mix up a 10 ml with our preferred base and add .3g flavor, and 9.7 ml base.
Yes most do it this way. Assume 1:1 SG and it will all be relative to the weight used and very repeatable and upscaleable to even gallon batches.
The SG with PGA will evaporate over time depending, and increase in weight.
For example, If I make a new recipe and I want 2% of a flavor but I drop 2.3%. I update the recipe to indicate 2.3%. Because that 0.3% over a larger batch will make a difference. This might be where a lot of people might not care to give attention or updating their recipe.
When PGA evaporates, your bottle will NOT ‘increase in weight’. In fact, your bottle will decrease in both weight and volume. The ‘density’ (g/ml) will increase. And mixing by ratios (either by weight or volume) will give you the exact same juice blend regardless if you mix 10ml or 1000ml.
When adapting someone else’s recipe there is no way to know if the original author used drops (and note the drops/ml is set per user, and also not per bottle), 1:1, 1:1.038, built-in SGs or per user custom SGs. It’s also possible that the SG in the database could have been ‘updated’ from the time of the original authorship, whether it was originally a publication mistake or if the mfg changed formulas over time. Ultimately you need to mix and adjust any recipe according to your own processes.
Thank you for elaborating.
I see so many Whole numbers in recipes. 1% 2% 3% 4% %5. I don’t think people care so much.
But for new small recipe creations at 3mL. If you really drop 2.4% and say to yourself 2% is good enough to note. After 1 month steep… if it is a good recipe and you make a 30mL batch. That 0.4% you wrote-off as not important- maybe 1 drop for a 3 mL tester. But it turns into 10 drops, you are now leaving out for a 30mL batch. 20 extra drops for a 60mL and 40 drops for a 120mL batch.
Just using drops to make it simpler to see how something so small can turn into a big thing.
Yes but it still won’t change the actual original recipe as it was when you mixed and didn’t add the extra the .4 it will still be ok if you leave off the .4 - I don’t quite understand what you are saying if you always leave off the extra .4 it will remain as good as the recipe you first mixed
1 drop (0.02g) in 3ml would only be a 0.66% error. Unlikely you would notice that. But the difference between 2 and 2.4% is a 20%, which would more likely be noticable, especially with super/ultra strong flavorings where you may only want to use .2-.5% in your mix. I rarely make anything less than 30ml these days, as I need enough to test it multiple times over steeping periods, in different atomizers etc.