Diketones, Oils, Sugars, GMO – All-in-one page: FA, TPA, FLV, CAP, FW, LB, etc

Let me see if I can create a program to generate a list of lot numbers and we can see about it publishing it on the site.

Without the lot numbers, we still have the general testing (average results) on the product image.

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Amazing! :+1:

I’ve read that each batch of flavoring Real Flavors produces is tested and approved before you ship and that you keep batch testing reports on all lot numbers for 3 years (very transparent and thoughtful, but slightly more difficult with lots of different lot numbers i assume). Otherwise, a simple table would be the best (easiest to follow and to decide for customers who care about these things).

This!
This would be totally enough! I guess noone really cares about the difference in between 547 or 583ppm (or +/-5%), but this would make table simple and easy to follow for those who care. And those rare customers who want to check about their particular batch, they can find those info based on lot numbers on your website.

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I would first like to say that I appreciate the amount of personal time and effort that you have put into your project. I applaud it, because it is important for flavour companies to be transparent to us the consumer. That having been said, I have a couple of notes for you.

  1. Wonder Flavors- I spoke to Frank Eblender some months ago on the issue of diketones in his flavorings, as I had purchased several and had sensitivities to the first 3 that I had tried. His response at the time was that testing had not been done, but that I should expect most of, if not all of his flavors to contain diketones. He did not seem to feel this was an issue.
  2. To say that the threshold of significance for Acetoin (or any chemical) was 100ppm, and to state 10ppm was irrevelant is false for some people, though it may be to many. My body can in fact detect Acetoin at 10ppm when a flavor is used at 6-8%. So I’d like to avoid even what you might call trace amounts.
  3. Naturally Occurring diketones are for me, just as harmful as added diketones. The diketones present in naturally occurring for in FLV Caramel, Cream, and Vanilla Custard, for example, are strong enough at .25% in a mix to give me a Cluster Migraine within 3 minutes of vape time. I think that those of us who reaction to diketones in our liquid would tell you that there is not a great difference in effect between naturally occurring Diacetyl and added Diacetyl.
  4. I take issue with your comments about Flavour Art. They are as follows:
    A. My first issue is the one about the ones intended for cooking and not vaping. If you were to enquire about the flavours that are diketone heavy or oil soluble, you would find that they do not label them as safe for vaping. In fact, they label them as oil soluble or not intended for vaping. They have banned the sale of those flavors for sale in US based vape flavour companies because they do Not want people to use them in the creation of Eliquid flavors. Some diy companies have in fact gone through the back door to obtain these flavors (such as Pandoro or Butter) by purchasing from third party entities, but Flavour art does not sell them to DIY companies themselves here in the U.S.
    B. The Clear Stream Technology initiative is significant, and Flavour art is the only big flavour company to both submit to testing And publish findings. As I said before, I am extremely sensitive to D.A.A.P. as well as artificial sweeteners, even having issues with as low as 10ppm. I have never had an issue with a single FA flavouring, and I use their flavours almost exclusively now, because they are the one company I can trust not to make me ill. I am not a paid spokesperson, just a person who would not still be mixing/vaping today if Flavour Art did not exist. And I am not the only one.
  5. If you look at Dr. Farsalinos comprehensive studies of the effects of vaping versus smoking, you might be surprised to note that he chose to use Flavour Art liquids.
    EDITED 5. Lastly, and Probably the most IMPORTANT
    Flavour Art is One of ONLY Two Companies, (the other Being REAL FLAVORS) giving Tens of Thousands of Dollars MONTHLY to vape Advocacy and Research. No other flavour companies do that, to my knowledge. Flavorah doesn’t spend a penny on advocacy efforts, even though their claim to fame is that they started as a vape flavors company. This is worthy of note.
    I hope that you’ve not taken me to come across as rude, as it is most certainly not my intention. I only wish to help out, as harm reduction is literally what I strive for.
    Thank you.
    http://www.clearstreamonward.com/home-en/
    http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php
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VERY much appreciate your sharing this information! I’ve seen WF listed, but hadn’t seriously considered them yet, as I’ve not read much about them. But given what you just shared, it would seem that I need to move them way up the list on my “brands to check into” when considering new purchases!!

Also, very sorry to hear about your experiences/sensitivities to migraines WRT diketones. I can definitively relate, as I’m sensitive to PG past a point.

Reason #1 why information coming to light is a great thing. This way we can maximize our chances for success in staying away from tobacco, while catering to our individual needs/goals!

Oh WOW!
Again, appreciate your mentioning this, as I have pandoro, and was planning on buying butter in the very next order!
If you have any links on this that either expound on, or simply “back up” (not that I’m insinuating anything, just a firm believer in the old adage “trust, but verify” when it comes to the important things) the bit about these two being oil based, I’d be indebted!! :slight_smile:

EDIT for both posterity and clarity:
Neither FA Pandoro nor FA Butter are oil-soluable. Due to phrasing (and miscommunication) and the subsequent edit in the original post (which was then reflected in my quote), and additional (following) conversation, understandings became clearer all around. Maintain whatever your “normal” level of vigilance is with regard to D/A/AP has been. Lol

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I quite agree @Sprkslfly! :blush:

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@VapeyMama and @AZViking being as I know you two were also using/considering using FA Butter from our thread here…

Thought you might also appreciate the additional info.

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@Sprkslfly- As for FA Whipped Cream, Pandoro, and Butter, this Is why I tried to say " ‘Or’ not intended or safe to vape". They are not Oil Soluble, they are water Soluble, but they Do contain diketones, and Flavour Art has been making a great effort not to put diketone carrying flavors into the hands of diy mixers. This is why they have redone a number of their flavours to remove Diacetyl in favor of Butyric Acid. Which appears to have less of a harmful effect on the lungs. A couple of examples are FA Yogurt, and FA Condensed Milk. Two flavors that used to contain Diketones but now do not. I will attempt to find the published evidence on this, but I did want to clarify right away.

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@Sprkslfly- here is the enthalpy page from old FA Yogurt:

And the link for the testing on new yogurt:
http://www.clearstreamonward.com/yogurt-e-liquid-10ml-with-nicotine/
I hope that this helps with backing up some of what I’ve said.

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OK! Thank you for the clarification!

While you were replying though, I just did some cursory checking, and the results were indeed interesting. Not one of my go-to vendors (Bull City Flavors, GremlinDIY, NicotineRiver) had either FA Pandoro or FA Butter listed for sale.

So now, I’m even more curious… (and at least initially, appreciative that they appear to be looking out for us as usual!)

EDIT: it appears it was just coincidence. Again, no oils involved in these.

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I found the link I was searching for initially! For your reading pleasure:
http://flavourartnaflavourreports.com/

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No no! Again, I’m not calling you out, don’t take it wrong, just that you hit a critical note for me in regards to the oil, and only the oil factor!

I know they’ve redone a number due to diketones etc. But oil is a proven no-go, so I try to take note when that topic is raised. That’s why I was hoping for more information to read about flavors confirmed to contain it! That’s all! :wink:

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You are fine!! I would be the same way in regards to oil soluble. I did not take offense, but rather took it as an opportunity to improve upon the information I was providing.
No worries, all is well! :gift_heart:

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Umm… I beg to differ… We have two full-time lobbyists, a former US Senator, and a law firm working around the clock with other advocacy groups, in fact, I am the President of VARS. In the last six months, we have spent over $150,000 on these projects. We honestly just do not market it or scream at the top of our lungs that we are paying for all this. We work as a community.

Sorry, that comment sort of ruffled my feathers a bit.

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@Walt_RealFlavors, my most sincere apologies! I had no idea! Allow me to ament my first statement. I will say for the record, that I appreciate your advocacy efforts so much more than you know.
I also appreciate that you are being transparent and trying to make sure your flavors are as clean as possible, as well as marking those that have even trace amounts of DAAP. It was not my intent to slam you even indirectly. I really do appreciate you in the community.

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Thanks, sorry if I sounded short. I just read that and my eye twitched a bit lol. No harm, we are all good.

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Walt- even us consumers need to be transparent and open to correction. I appreciate you saying something. I seek always to be fair and accurate. Please see my original comments to see the edit. Blessings be on you and your business. :blush:

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THANK YOU very much for your update @Har_d_vape.

  1. Very useful info about WF!
  2. Good point about the amount of D-A-AP. I will rephrase some paragraphs above
  3. You’re right about naturally formed Diacetyl. I will update the info about FLV.
  4. This may be correct to some degree in the US, but many other vendors do sell those flavors anyway + there are several recipes there containing those flavors and also there are no warnings anywhere that those particular flavors are not suitable for vaping. I wish FA would distinguish those flavors more (large notes, different packaging or labels?), to prevent users to be confused what flavors are suitable for vaping and what flavors are not (note: FA does not distinguish their vaping and cooking flavors at all; FA website.

4B. I am aware of those FA testings and i certainly believe that they are one of the most responsible and caring companies (otherwise i wouldn’t use their flavors; about one third of all my flavors are FA; and i also believe that amounts of D/A/AP are low in their flavors). But this thread is about transparency = publicly released information about their DAAP testings. This is very important to make all these info unbiased (i can’t write it down like ‘they told me so and we have to believe them’). When test results are publicly released, then there are some more liabilities and transparency opens a field of testings made by another independent companies one day. When you hide everything, then noone can blame you for anything, right?

In case you missed this link above: List of FA flavors not suitable for vaping (note: keep in mind that all other flavors may contain Acetoin; FA does not give any info about Acetoin testings)

Thanks for your update. Let’s make all these info useful and better together.

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Thank you!, And you are welcome. It is also entirely possible that the wording FA uses on the corporate website is a requirement of the local municipality/govt. in response to legislative crackdown. I obviously don’t have the inside track on that. If I have anything else I can offer, I will do so.
Also. Acetoin is completely different than Acetyl Propionyl, I know that, but can you clarify?

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Bookmarked! Thank you for the head’s up!

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Is that actually a list of flavors that are not suitable for vaping or is it just a list of their flavors that contain diacetyl? Because there is a difference.

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