How much government involvement would you agree to?

General Health and advocacy
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Continuing the discussion from Got a link to this podcast about chemicals in vaping:

Before you jump off the rails with a knee-jerk answer, please read to the end and think about it a moment. I think most of us who are former smokers are at least somewhat concerned about our health. Otherwise why vape…it sure as hell ain’t cheaper than smoking! Well not the way most of us do it anyway.

There is a lot of talk about government getting involved with the vaping industry. The various reasons why people are opposed to this have been laid out and most make very good sense. We don’t want to see our hobby and escape from the clutches of tobacco get regulated into oblivion, or forced into a high cost situation where many won’t be able to afford to vape. It’s only natural I think. And equally natural is to recoil at every conceivable threat to our freedoms.

But are we so damned determined to preserve our privilege that we’ll ignore potential health risks? I think for the most part that is a resounding no. I see people being proactive – learning about dangerous flavorings, potential hazards with batteries, and concerns over resistance wires being used. There are tons of helpful resources available. However, being honest with yourself, would you say that the first time vaper is more or less likely to head in the wrong direction when it comes to avoiding the things a veteran vapor knows? Where does the new vaper learn the things we’re all beginning to take for granted? And how can we as a community or a nation do whatever it takes to insure that people entering the vaping world are educated about safe practices? Let’s face it…not everyone is lucky enough to be a member of a great site such as this where warnings of risk are shared almost daily.

This brings me to the crux of the situation. Do you think the Federal government should be at all involved in the vaping industry? If so, to what extent? In the post I linked to I had shared a list I found of the e-liquids tested by VaporShark. The known chemicals hazardous to human health found in many flavorings are still being used by many of the premium e-liquid manufacturers. I urge you to listen to the podcast Lars posted in his thread because it is very illuminating. Story be told, many of these manufacturers of e-liquid were making juice high in those suspect chemicals and only sought to alter their recipes as a result of the VaporShark tests.

Does this tell you that the e-cig industry is not effectively policing itself? Well had it not been for VaporShark, I dare say there would still be $28 bottles of e-liquid being sold which contained high levels of Diketones. And I also believe it will take more than one of their competitors revealing this to get other companies to change.

Should government be involved in determining safety of vaping devices or resistance wire, cotton, rayon, metals, plastics, do purity tests on nicotine, PG and VG? Any or all of it? If not, who should be and who would enforce that it gets done? Or do you think it doesn’t matter?

Or how about this. Would you agree if the government were to only require vape shops and online retailers to put up a disclaimer effectively saying the use of e-cigarettes carries risk to health and property. We are not responsible for any loss of health, life or property that might result from the use of our products? Then just leave it at caveat emptor? What do you think society’s and government’s responsibility is here?

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That’s where sites like this and Youtube are very helpful because veteran vapers talk about the risks and what to avoid. Government involvement would put a stop to this because the new regulations forbid any advertising and
Youtube video’s and info on this site will be regarded as advertising and banned. Since the government knows shit about vaping, who’s going to steer noobs in the right direction?

[quote=“SthrnMixer, post:1, topic:29543”]
not everyone is lucky enough to be a member of a great site such as this
[/quote]Most people do turn to Youtube and the likes to learn about vaping, that is if they have any sense. I they don’t, they usually disregard government warnings too.

[quote=“SthrnMixer, post:1, topic:29543”]
Does this tell you that the e-cig industry is not effectively policing itself?
[/quote]In my country it was the e-cigarette industry that has lobbied the government to ban sales for kids under 18 and a lot of companies have adapted the flavours they use after it became know that what they used wasn’t quite safe. That is more they can be said for the tobacco industry and the vaping industry is getting hit a lot harder with regulation than big tobacco.

[quote=“SthrnMixer, post:1, topic:29543”]
Should government be involved in determining safety of vaping devices or resistance wire, cotton, rayon, metals, plastics, do purity tests on nicotine, PG and VG? Any or all of it?
[/quote]Yes they should, they do that with every product on the market. I think PG, VG and nicotine are already tested for that a long time.
My problem with government involvement is that is has shit to do with safety or health or any of the excuses they come up with. They are just thinking about money and tobacco is way more profitable for them.
So if the government were a bunch of stand up guys and gals concerned with their citizens I would have no problem with their involvement, but they are not. They are a greedy bunch of self-serving lunatics that couldn’t care less about the people they so called ‘serve’. Just look at all the things they are allowing that are completely detrimental to public health but bring in the big bucks.
So the short answer is no, I don’t want a bunch of criminals getting involved in what I do with my life. If government had come up with the idea of vaping to reduce the risk for smokers it would be a different matter. The only thing they have ever done is raise taxes to discourage smoking when they know it doesn’t help. Any drugdealer can tell you that an addict will pay what it costs to get a fix, no matter what, and that is exactly what they are, drugdealers. And they are panicking because the sales are plummeting.
I would like to say a lot more but I gotta sleep now :sleeping:

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Yes noobs are likely to but not because of the reasons you think. I’m willing to bet that 85% of first time vapers bought their equipment at a Convenience Store or a Tobacco Store. Their ignorance leads them to believe someone who sells tobacco would sell decent ecigs.I see them buy trash units all the time. Wonder why they leak all over them, why it tastes burn all the time, I see people are not taught even the basics of changing a coil (Primeing). I’m sorry but these people’s ignorance keep the trash available for sale. Not only that, many now do not trust those selling good equipment because of their initial ignorance and buying that 1st piece of trash…

Ejuice, This will work itself out. The consumers will see to that. It’s already happening…

Wire Types This too will work itself out. Companies watch us closely. They are switching cotton, switching to Ti, and even switching to SS wire. I don’t see Nickel going over very well. Again the consumers are making it clear what they want.

Absolutely not! They have proven where their sentiments are, not with the public health but where the money is. Want proof, the 2007 grandfather clause. As written, if you want nicotine, you’ll be buying from the Tobacco Companies. The FDA and the majority of our government officials have proven over and over that our lives and well being mean nothing as long as they please their Lobbyists and continue to rake in the tax dollars and this also includes most State Officials. Anyone who can’t see what is truly happening concerning the ecig industry needs to wake up. How on earth can we turn something like this over to people who really don’t care about us. HOW CAN WE?

No again, they are already turning down applications for vaping products. They will not even look at them. Unless of course submitted by a Big Pharma company…

New Nicotine Inhaler May Help Smokers Quit

Quote: “The device they came up with does not use fire or heat. Instead, as the
smoker draws air through the cigarette-shaped device, a chemical called
pyruvic acid is drawn into contact with nicotine, creating a cloud of
nicotine pyruvate vapor.” UnQuote

Some of those items you named already have FDA approval anyway…

To agree with any of their rules and regs at this time is to admit to them and the world that ECigarettes and EJuice are Tobacco Products so again NO

If the Regulators Can Not Regulate this product for what it really is and regulate it fairly then I can not trust them to set any rules for this industry, PERIOD…

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My problem with government involvement is this: They don’t know when to effing stop! They over-regulate, rely on lobbyists for information and are not fiscally responsible. If we had a government that actually worked for those they are supposed to serve and had their welfare in mind, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. As it stands today, I don’t trust them to do anything that doesn’t involve increasing their own bank accounts. Sorry for the rant, I was never this way but the past 20 years has really soured me on those that are supposed to be working for us.

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Personally I think the government needs to stop playing mommy and daddy, they need to stop regulating anything that isn’t already regulated to death and just stay out of everyone’s business. While that outlook could produce the possibility for hazards, I can go out right now and buy perfectly good food and mix it with anything I want at home to make it more hazardous than anything I might vape. Shouldn’t the government then regulate all hazardous materials because there is the potential of me making something bad? Just look at all the household cleaners or automotive products that they would have to protect me from… at the MOST they should treat it like a swimming pool at a hotel and have a small sign stating “Use at your own risk… no lifeguard on duty”.

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Let’s regulate Eggplants, Tomatoes, and all the other vegetables and plants that naturally contain nicotine. We can call them a tobacco product and tax the hell out of them and charge sin tax to eat them. Big Tobacco can then grow and distribute them. They can advertise to children to eat eggplant and tomatoes by using little cartoon characters and half naked woman to push their vegetables…

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Why stop at nic? There are a lot of people that are lactose intolerant, let’s get rid of the cows and goats. The problem with the government is it/they for some asinine reason go about regulating things they believe too few people will fight back about. They know if they regulate something prior to too many people becoming aware of their actions then they control that market. Most people believe that it is all about money, if they regulate something the common person basically has to pay for the privilege of the government to oversee them. They will allow something for a price. Cigarettes are legal for a price, nic and mods will be legal also… for a price.

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There was a funny episode of Family Guy where Peter successfully had the Quahog government disbanded. Then after the ensuing chaos figured out how to fix it…

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How much government involvement would you agree to?

Where we are now, only up to the point of fair taxation,under 18 prevention and health warnings.
Any other regulatory restrictions should be put to the vote of the people, not the special interests.
I think their are more voters in numbers representing sane vapers than crazy anti nicotine and tobacco zealots voters. It is the duty of each (Fed/State) senator and representative to collect this information and vote accordingly.

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The only thing the politicians rely on from the lobbyists is campaign contributions. The lobbyists for major corporations or industries with the biggest wallets are the ones that get their way.

It was never meant by the founders of the U.S.A. for the government to provide anything other than protection of the US sovereignty, the people in it, to ensure equality under the law, and to ensure opportunity of liberty. It was founded as a republic, not a democracy. What it has turned into is a democratic mess that is destined the final outcome of all democracies. It will go broke and implode. (notice the period at the end of that last sentance)
The system is broken beyond repair. The only thing that can fix it is…well…it is provided by the Second Amendment.

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I prefer to call it what it is…an oligarchy.

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Lets regulate the time people are exposed to government bullshit. It has proven to turn the brain into mush and drives perfectly ordinary people completely insane. I think they should only appear in public wearing signs. “Warning, the following speech does not contain any facts, listening to it is at your own risk . Prolonged exposure might lead to brain damage. Warning, content highly toxic”

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Ditto that

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Lot of great replies here. I actually half expected to get hit with a flame thrower because of how I worded my original post. It’s just hard to tell where I stand and by reading it, maybe one would think I agree to FDA intervention. Nothing could be further from the truth, but I’ll spell it out anyway.

FDA - Food and Drug Administration
Well we know vaping isn’t a food. It’s not a drug (yeah, they’ll argue nicotine for eternity).
Plain and simple, I see they have no place here. If they want to regulate nicotine, they certainly can. However I point to prohibition as a history lesson of what happens when you start prohibiting things people want.

But that does raise an interesting comparison - and there’s an entire government agency devoted to it. Alcohol, tobacco and firearms.

So, the only thing I can remotely compare the vaping industry to is alcohol. You go to a bar, order a Vodka Collins. A classy joint will make it from scratch but who knows, they may pull out some Collins mix and presto, here’s your drink. Government doesn’t intervene with the bar and make them go through rigorous testing to insure the mix they use is totally safe. They don’t require bars to serve the drinks in plastic for fear a glass could break and hurt someone. No, they basically just say ok, you want to sell booze…apply for a license and pay us “x” percent in tax and if you don’t we’ll come down on you like Seal Team 6, locked and loaded.

So will they form a new agency just for vapes? I doubt it. That’s why they want to consider them tobacco products so as to use the extremely powerful and authoritative section of the government already in place. Whatever, we can moan and groan but when the dust settles we’re powerless to prevent it. If they deem i-cigs a tobacco product…in my estimation…it will be for one purpose only. To stop the bleeding. And by that I mean the hemorrhaging of tax dollars lost from former smokers. The way I see it, once they get to the nuts and bolts of the matter, they will realize the enormous growth of the industry and decide rather than to squash it, they’ll just sink their teeth in an start grabbing their share of the loot.

Whether you agree with me or not, or agree there should be some kind of government controls or not, you should agree with at least this much. None of us wants our young adult children, wives, husbands, whatever to be vaping a liquid made in someone’s tool shed on an old, oil soaked work bench amid a bunch of gasoline fumes. No controls at all in a sluggish economy, that may be precisely what some will do. But rather than say yes to the government, it should be yes to industry policing. Sure its nice that VaporShark spent their money to have some liquids tested. But that’s not enough.

How about a non-profit devoted to vaping safety where manufacturers and liquid makers can earn membership by meeting certain standards? Things like minimum cleanliness requirements for juice labs, attys free from machine oil or other contaminants, vaping wire free from residue, cotton that is unbleached and free of contaminants. Battery safety testing with max load stamped on them. A promise to educate new vapers to the dangers of improper handling and use of product.

It could be called NAVANS - National Assosciation of Vapor and Nicotine Safety. Membership earned by meeting and maintaining minimum standards and by paying a quarterly membership fee to offset the cost of running it. Then there could be some kind of distinction within the industry between those vendors and retailers devoted to vaping safety and those just in it for a buck. I mean hells bells people, if we continue to sit on our hands and only respond to calls to action, government is definitely going to swoop down and when they do…when they do it will be too late.

Am I out in left field? Could be. I had a few Vodka Collins this afternoon myself :smile:

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Exactly, so they might have something to say about e-liquids but vaping equipment? I’ve never eaten a tank, have you?

[quote=“SthrnMixer, post:14, topic:29543”]
None of us wants our young adult children, wives, husbands, whatever to be vaping a liquid made in someone’s tool shed on an old, oil soaked work bench amid a bunch of gasoline fumes.
[/quote]Which is exactly what we are going to get if it becomes too expensive due to regulations people will resort to black market. It is what happened during the prohibition. There was no more consumption of beer and other soft alcoholic drinks, but the hard stuff was being brewed illegally and sold widely. The outcome was more alcoholics, not less and of course the spectacular rise of the Mob.

[quote=“SthrnMixer, post:14, topic:29543”]
How about a non-profit devoted to vaping safety
[/quote]Very sensible idea but as you already pointed out, it is about the money that is leaking out of the tobacco sales, not about safety and the gangsters that have proclaimed themselves to be our rulers would never agree to that.

[quote=“SthrnMixer, post:14, topic:29543”]
had a few Vodka Collins this afternoon myself
[/quote]I sure hope you did drink that out of a plastic cup, you know how dangerous a glass is in the hands of someone who is inebriated.

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Oh and BTW doing your annual income taxes in unconstitutional. Go look it up.

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