Anytime anything has to do with tobacco flavoring I do this @50YearsOfCigars and @Kinnikinnick and one of them usually come to the rescue if not both . I do believe kinnikinnick has used or uses more synthetics but both are mainly NET vapors …, Good luck OP , read what everyone is saying and try not to debate the replies too much …
You want a difinitive answer? Your not going to receive one. All flavorings have secret compounds in them.
If you want to know what compounds are in a particular flavoring, or vape juice. You’ll need a gas cromatagraph.
Precisely why I started this thread (in search of possible further, albeit limited, information). I understand the proprietary nature of closely held “trade secrets” (whenever monetary profits are involved) - and mentioned that very situation and related considerations in my original post on this thread:
“I thought that (without necessarily revealing sensitive critical ‘process secrets’ specifying concentrations) perhaps other readers who post (might) have some further knowledge relative to ingredients contained in various ‘tobacco’ e-flavorings (with Vapage ‘Classic Tobacco’ being my specific area of personal interest).”
LOL… You have a wonderful mind Thanks @Raven-Knightly
I agree it’s all extremely interesting. If you are working on these type of experiments bless your heart for your involvement.
What does the difference is in the charts say for those nic levels? Is it like the difference between light cigarettes and medium cigarettes?
I just look at the +/- in the charts and consider the limited range of variables and say maybe more testing is needed, at different temps, different nics. Just as in math you sometimes have to do the grunge work of plugging in tons of variables into the equation to find the correct answer.
But I got an over all positive feeling from the paper regarding vaping benefits.
If something is wrong and you need to use patches, instead of vaping, they worked for me. But my issue with nic patches was the constant flow of nicotine in my system, excessive sweating, Lucid Dreams every night. I never got those bad symptoms from vaping.
Cheers and keep up the faith!
Kind Regards, Freddie3.
Where it comes to “aerosol nicotine delivery”, in terms of potential Nicotine absorption, yes.
The plus/minus figures around the mean (average) value represent one Standard Deviation unit.
Yes, and chocolate and red wine may also (if nothing else) add to our experienced quality of lfe and joy !
48 years of smoking took it’s toll. Had to let that go, by necessity for my health. It has taken around 6 months to roughly stabilize in the aftermath. Those transdermals (even two 21 mg patches on each arm) never quite did it for me. Neither did Nicotine inhalers (similar to today’s more modern Nicotine delivery systems). But I have gotten myself used to the significantly more delayed gratifications of vaping, and have reduced my (likely) absorbed Nicotine by around a factor of 4, and resulting monetary costs by a factor of around 20 !
As compared to the ~7,000 chemicals in tobacco smoke (~700 thought to be likely carcinogenic), including the 599 chemical additives used in formulating leaf-tobacco, vaping is (relatively) benign. However, above around 200 Deg C (and increasing around 270 Deg C), it has been found that VG (to an extent reportedly greater than PG) does break down into the toxic aldehydes acetaldehyde, formaldehyde, and acrolein (the latter appearing to be by far the most dangerous of the lot, with formaldehyde coming in at second place). More information specifically regarding acrolein physiological toxicity can be found in this paper here.
“PG and GL were identified to be the main sources of toxic carbonyl compounds from e-cigarette use. GL produced much more formaldehyde than PG. Besides formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, measurable amounts of acrolein were also detected at 270˚C, but only when GL was present in the e-liquid.”
Graph-plotted results of PG, VG, and PG + VG mix aldehyde generation over temperature (Fig.s 2-5):
“A Device-Independent Evaluation of Carbonyl Emissions from Heated Electronic Cigarette Solvents”
So, it seems that there may be good specific reasons for limiting vaporization temps to around 200 Deg C.
LOL gotta love those flavor receiptors
Might sound self-fish But, I don’t inhale much vape for me to be concerned. So I don’t mind a little, spit-back to get some transdermal in-mouth nicotine.
It’s all fascinating to me also. I research professional flavor testing a little. Harshness I don’t recall being one of the receptors that some molecule would give you. I do know if you touch your tongue to the roof of your mount you’ll get the sensation of fat/oil that works.
I believe that science is reserved for your mouth receptors only. Harshness in your throat or lungs that doesn’t sound good mate.
My only thing with that study is in one of the cases the + or - would almost cancel their finding out. The other extreme would validate it. If they did more testing.
Ok… first… not a lot of folks here will go to technical in posting… is why I said: you might want to keep things simple.
Second: albeit you say you are using nicotine from 2 places… ok good… then you are using ready mixed liquid, of which, again… no one will break down what is in it other than: nic vg/pg and flavorings.
Yet: you are using both freebase nic and nic salts … (the salts are the smoothest you will obtain, depending on manufacture and reseller. )
I understand you want to learn… won’t knock you there… learning is good for everyone. however… no one will be able to say there is .99.9% of “x” chemical/molecule etc… you might try to clone or reproduce what you assume to taste… but turning over trade secrets from a company depending on people wanting a quick fix isnt going to happen.
I know you are in the “wondering” stage atm… but when you are able to pick up some flavors and try your own hand at mixing, it will open up a whole new world. Unless you go to creating your own nets too. Various ways to do what you want, and learn as you go along…
I only wish you the best! Happy learning.
From what I am reading, it appears that a significant quantity of vaped Nicotine is absorbed via mouth, throat and stomach tissues - as opposed to lung - tissues. Hence, the (up to 30 min, or so) “delayed gratification”.
There are “chemo-receptors” in the mouth and throat - which tri- and tetra-methyl-pyrazines quell, mitigating the perception of “harshness” associated with inhaling smoke/vapors. They are used in tobacco processing.
Remember that is reported here to be the case where it comes to “aerosol particle size”, but not the case where it comes to “aerosol nicotine delivery”. Note that those plus and minus data values represent less frequently observed data values in roughly “Normally” distributed results data (more information here).
I do try - while still adequately covering the intended subject of a thread (ingredients), and replies regarding various other “vectors” introduced by replying posters. Perhaps some threads may not be for everybody.
Yes, I knew that the nature of my inquiry was a long-shot - but it seems that it has for me been educational.
You got me thinking. I have been operating under an assumption that their “Classic Tobacco” e-juice and disposable clearomizer tanks contain Nicotine base (and not salts of Nicotine). However, a search of the Vapage web-site does not yield any sort of definitive statements that they do not utilize Nicotine salts.
Printed on the box packaging of a 3-pack of Vapage “Classic Tobacco” 15mL e-liquid are the words:
“Ingredients: Propylene Glycol,Vegetable Glycerin, Flavoring, Nicotine.”
If by “flavoring”, they mean things like Benzoic or Citric Acid (as in Nicotine salts), that would be a shame.
Thank you kindly !
Wasn’t posting about the terms you are using… the thought process
Try it out and see, can not hurt… however… would be best if you did not utilize their juice, but rather try to pair what you taste with flavors/nets available to you
More than welcome, Merry Christmas!
Unfortunately, you’re probably going to have a really hard time finding the information you’re looking for since it’s a secret recipe using flavor Concentrates that are also secret recipes. It’s like the answer is hidden behind two locked vaults. I’ve done a bit of experimenting with flavor molecules on their own, and can sometimes pick out certain ones in flavor Concentrates, but as you saw with the TFA spec sheets I shared earlier, they can have quite a few flavor melecules per ingredient, and if the e-liquid company is using 5+ flavors per recipe, you’re going to have a hard time picking all those out and researching them.
On a very productive day at work I started putting together this list of molecules I was interested in trying to create my own tobacco flavor. At the end of the post there is a link to this pdf which might interest you, though it is more about flavorings that tobacco companies have used to flavor tobacco. Though I reckon some of the same have made their way in to the synthetic flavors that we use.
TFA is the only place that openly shares all the molecules that are in their flavors. The next best thing you will get is SDS sheets. Nicotine River supplies some, but it doesn’t look like they have them all. They also have a box that will list some ingredients, but not all:
But again, not really going to help unless you know the recipe for the juice. Might be worth picking up a few flavors and seeing if one gives you issues and others don’t, and seeing if you can narrow it down to a particular flavor molecule. Or go flavorless. I know there’s quite a few who do that, and it’s going to be the safest form of vaping.
Spectrum analysis might help.
They seem to behave differently opposed yet still in tandem in a way to each other.
Like AP tastes good but gets harsh in the throat.
And Spicy peppers bite your mouth, not so much your throat.
But liquid PG does come closest to the mouth feel of what i would consider a harsh mouth sensation. Similar to spicy but different still.
Thank you @Raven-Knightly
There seems to be a lot of data on this if you follow the references.
Thank you kindly for your excellent on-topic and helpfully informative replies as well as references provided - particularly the link to “Tobacco Flavoring for Smoking Products”, R J Reynolds Tobacco Company (1972) !
Am presently diluting Vapage “Classic Tobacco” by a factor of 5 (or more) by volume - which seems to be the upper threshold before my lungs seem to tell me that they don’t like (something or things) within the mix.
From the little that I have read, it appears that e-juice flavors (particularly certain ones such as “cinnamon”, and perhaps “chocolate” flavorings) - in part as a result of their “proprietary”, non-disclosed nature - are the least well (toxicologically) characterized ingredients. Thus (potentially) higher risks. I myself don’t really mind the “flavorless” regime (which I have also tried). Lungs, I have learned, are very delicate and finite organs.
Gas chromatological analyses performed in the complex Z-Plane would indeed make everything clearer !
With PG VG both?
Lifes short, lil time… I make it EASY n dump down the drain.
Like any real danger, crossing a path with a cobra, you don’t even think, your body reacts and just jumps away. Once you start thinking about stuff it seems like humans like to play with bad stuff, rather then just jumping away from it. Odd creatures we are.
Vapage “Classic Tobacco” e-juice is 70/30 PG/VG, and the disposable clearomizer juice is (I think) 80/20 PG/VG. My custom “mixes” are roughly 75/25 PG/VG, with an ability to tweak the Nicotine concentration (have been working my way up from 5 - 6 mg/mL, and I may be going a bit higher as Nic tolerance grows).
Well, I’m now at a crossroads, do I use my repertoire of frivolous flowery language to attempt to clarify base ingredients can have as much if not more of an effect on a person than the flavorings used in the manufacturer of said vaping products.
Or do I say hey PG is the most offending irritant in vape juice.
The extremely analytical mind can be entertaining, somewhat, now I am just further confused as to the point,Oh well hope all turns out well.