Maybe ELR is just too good

Maybe if we can define what needs to be fixed, then we have half the solution…

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Yeah ok. And sooner or later the definitions will get picked apart… just like all the ideas.

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(Not trying to derail this thread just trying to get something across.)

Not sure how to take this one. I will say this though, “To err is human.” The reason this site is is great in many ways is the difference of people here. There are so many different ways to do things, i.e. store nic, mixing, bottling, you get the idea. I like what you said about just do your own thing. I would add a caveat to that and make sure it is safely done. There is a reason for the different opinions. It is because we (older generation) have learned from mistakes and the people that have been doing this for a long time are trying to make sure the same mistakes are not repeated.

There are some derailments I am well aware of and maybe have partaken in a few of the derailments. We 99% of the time make sure that the OP got what was needed. Then back to the fun. Being human is a factor that you cannot get rid of here. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to a site functioning.

Difference of opinions are a great thing at times. There are “passionate” discussions to be had. We believe that this is the tried and true method and nothing can change that for the old timers. It’s what comes out of the discussion that is actually beautiful. Several safe methods for doing the same thing. The old adage that out of chaos comes beauty, something to that effect, is true here if you look at it just right.

As with any generation gap there are different ways to do things. Whether it is right or wrong that is a judgement call. If it is truly bad the people that have been here for some time will hopefully chime in and say, “Hey, this is dangerous!!!” and try to quell the issue due to safety reasons.

My point to all of this is that when you add a human element to anything expect difference of opinions and chaos at times. That is why we have mods and admins. They are here to help with what they can actually help with and have a tough job. Also remember it is hard to please everyone and that a Utopia just will not happen with a human element involved.

Just my dollars worth of info. (I think I said more than my two cents worth, lol.)

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@jay210 Glad you are here and great discussion piece.

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@woftam I know you deal with a lot. Thank you for you and your admin services. Maybe to quell the “gibberish” discussion for the other side, lock in all the flavors and if another flavor needs to be added have a note sent in to the admins to add a new flavor. That way you have a consistent database of flavors and people will not be able to add something with out letting you all know. Just a thought.

Admins keep up the great work.

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I think this is how the other 3 letter diy calculator site operates. I’ve never used it, but i can see the pros and cons of such a system. No clutter is the major pro, waiting for approval to use your own Stone or a lesser-known brand/flavor could be a con.

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yeah. More the half the flavours I’ve input were new to the system, so, assuming that trend continues, that’s gonna be a major headache fr me, but if they can’t find a better way, they can’t better way, and i’ll just have live with it.

I just totally disagree with the notion that most of the people who input gibberish are antisocial idiots who just don’t care. . I think that your typical new user is just somebody who’s new to mixing, not great with spelling, doesn’t know alll the accepted abbreviations (who does?) and hasn’t yet twigged that his every little typo is being set in concrete and saved for posterity. He’s just playing with his new toy (like you would) and trying to design his own mix.

Most of those people probably just get bored and go away again . I’ve looked at enough random recipes to see that an awful lot of those recipes never got mixed, vaped and commented on; the mixer simply lost interst, seemingly. Probably decided that mixing isn’t for him. It’s also a pity to clutter uo the database with thousands of half-baked recipes that body ever really cared about, but harder to see what we could do to eliminate those. I guess making recipes private by default is the best we can do there (and, I know, that has been done)

as for

FFS, maybe the line is a teeny bit fuzzy, but- for the most part-we all agree on what counts as gibberish.
Take this example, recently posted by @BikesAndBacon

image

yep, these are all variants on the exact same flavour.

Anybody think those variants ought to preserved in the name of " freedom of choice" ? anyone think they are not gibberish but a genius work of Dadaism, perhaps? :rofl: (put your hand down, Joel. Anybody else?)

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Same here @Skullblade789. What if when someone tried to ADD a new flavor, it WOULD have to be approved, AND, that recipe would remain PRIVATE until the flavor WAS approved ??

Database would still be huge, BUT, the public view recipes wouldn’t show questionable flavors ?

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sounds like a plan :slight_smile:

talking of the huge database, i often wonder how much it costs @daath to store that ever-growing heap of…erm…fertiliser :grinning: i hope isn’t as much as i fear .

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Could de clutter a bunch of stuff though.

Just a thought.

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That is the big pro I mentioned, we agree again!

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My point was just that even if you make every user read out the guidelines, study them, test them on it and only let them create flavors when they pass, it’ll still turn out to be this mess.
If it is not wanted on the site, then users shouldn’t be able to create flavors. Set out the rules in the code and there’s no more cleaning and no more getting frustrated with these flavors.

You’re not new to the site, you know which one to pick for your stash. If others don’t care and take the wrong one, their what can I make function won’t be working optimally… that’s all.

And my other point being… there are probably more threads in this forum about the problem with flavor names than there are entries of crazy creamy custard. They’re all about the same topic and I think we can all say it’s gibberish too then. Yet even us, the “old people”, the veterans, do the same thing on a different level. Who are we to say that they are wrong and we are right? :wink:

If it really was such a huge problem, people wouldn’t stick around … it’s just a mess in your eyes (and don’t get me wrong, mine too), it doesn’t fit in an orderly world but it’s not a show stopper by far so no reason to keep getting worked up about.
I’m not convinced a forced visit to the forum will help any of this in the slightest way.

WE can’t even make up our minds about flavor names. Is it Cream, Vanilla Ice or Vanilla Ice Cream? Does FM stand for Fab Mix, Flavour Max or Flavor Monks? How do you expect noobs to do it exactly how you want them to do it?

These discussions are going nowhere. They’ve been going on for years (at least since 2016 when I joined) and probably will continue to do so for many more years. So why get worked up about it again and again and again?

We can all make it better for ourselves by sticking to commonly agreed standards in the forum but unless these rules are coded into the recipe site, they’re not enforceable and there will always be a growing amount of people that try to reinvent the wheel and do things differently.

@Skullblade789 I can only agree, not quite sure why you’re arguing with me about it. I was only telling Jay not to get frustrated with it because it’s not perfect and never will be. I couldn’t care less that it’s not utopia, it does what I need it for and in a very good way actually.

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I don’t know what set the rules in code means but if by that, you mean hard coding the flavor names, well that’s what I’ve lobbied for since the beginning. But it hasn’t happened. And based on the lack of any sort of information from admin as to what’s coming down the pipe it probably never will happen.

//Rant On
Sorry, I’m not one of those people to just settle and go with the flow. “If it doesn’t hurt anybody why care about it?” does not work for me.
If a user, whether new or seasoned, is old enough by most laws to be mixing and vaping then they should also be educated enough to know how to put a correct name to a flavor, in addition to how to spell and use capital letters! Since when has this shit ever been acceptable for adults??

And you know what’s funny? The Reddit crowd has yet another new name for the ELR populace. We are known as the Neanderthals. Past names include ‘recipe dumpster’, no doubt because there’s so much garbage.

ELR is my landing base. That go-to place between sleep and reality where I have developed a certain sense of pride in something. When I hear that sort of labeling by other people, it fucking bothers me. And rather than get into pissing matches with those people arguing merits and what not, I keep doing what I can to make the recipe side something they will say positive things about. Maybe I’m alone for thinking that way, but it should bother some of the people here as well I would think!!
Regardless, I’ll continue doing what I’ve been doing on that side and just hope for a change! //Rant off

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To be fair to the adults who do have at least a rudimentary understanding of grammar some of the what we add to the stash isn’t property capitalized but if we don’t chose to use the improper one we lose the option to just tap the flavor and be led to the sometimes better flavor note. I know and appreciate the efforts to correct these listing but I personally will continue to enter what the flavor list offers with the highest #. Then there doesn’t seem to be a concensus amongst the vendors what initials to use for each brand. I’ve seen 3 separate ones for Hangsen alone. Most just use the vendors abbreviation on their bottles.
Point is we can rant all day but between international, vendor, or what habits are formed out the diy gate there will never be a unilateral right or wrong. I suspect administration knows this very well.

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Hard coding flavor names is one of the options. There are other options, like putting a flavor up for publication (after which a power user, moderator, admin, … adds it to a list), having a voting system where people ad flavors to a pre-publication list and after enough other user votes, it gets published (same can be done for corrections of existing flavors or merges), etc etc.

But you’re right, it all depends on Lars and if he doesn’t see the need, there’s no use to keep debating it. Lars is very aware of the frustration of some users, as well as others liking that they can freely add their stones, NETs and whatever else. He’s the one who created the site, he’s the one who takes decisions.

I don’t really think it has anything to do with education. You have users here with very low levels of education who have much more respect and discipline than some who probably have higher degrees and level of education doesn’t say much about intellect either. It’s more a problem of character or personality if you ask me.

It’s the age of the internet … even the nicest people you know turn into trolls at night behind their keyboards. And reddit? Come on dude… they flame on everybody and everything :smiley: You gotta grow some skin.

And you have to remember, as long as Lars doesn’t change the way the site operates, you can write every possible guide you could, try and help every single user with questions, jump high and low, be friendly or rude, pray to every god that’s ever existed… things are only going to get worse because more and more people are using the site every day and as long as the code of the website doesn’t enforce certain rules, people will keep doing their thing.
Keep your sanity and don’t let it upset you … or you could redirect your frustration and try to make a site that works better? :slight_smile:

I think that’s what many of us do, but realistically speaking, I don’t see any major changes happening soon. It takes a lot of effort, time, blood, sweat and tears and even then, some people will be butt hurt over the changes.

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Yes I fully agree with you. And what you refer to all points to the “open-entry” policy. That one user, whomever it was, submits the flavor name for the very first time incorrectly. From there it’s visible publicly so everyone else just goes along with it as the recipe #'s grow. Once submitted the names cannot be changed except by the admin and the 1 moderator. Add to this the fact that users may look for a name and not find it (for any number of reasons) so they add their own version because nothing stops them from doing so. It’s happened 100’s of times and continues almost daily. And as you said those are the one’s with all the notes and such, making the issue even worse for corrections.

I can live with some of that assessment and might even add laziness to it. But what trips my trigger is how it is becoming widely acceptable and more prevalent especially in the DIY sectors. Yet no one says anything for fear of ruffling some feathers or having some label cast on them! The flavor cop, the spelling Nazi! Pfft…you’re damn right!
And about me growing some skin? That hurts bro! I mean gaping stab-wound kind of hurt. My observations and the decision to share them have nothing to do with how sensitive or not I am.

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I don’t find the diy sector any different that the gear sector honestly. New terms crop up almost daily. Pissed off the old timers who conveniently forget they came up with some new terminology themselves at one time. Language evolves with every generation. No sense beating your head against a brick wall over it. It’s annoying but we usually end up using the newer terms ourselves eventually. Except bro, hate that one as much as my folks hated man.

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Just for the record (and I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned this before in private)… I haven’t had the necessary permissions/rights to edit flavor names. Ever. Everything I’ve done to date is via merge, and when required, a newly typed entry (by myself) at the precise moment its needed.

The only ones who can are Lars, KoW, and JoJo.

My workaround is a lot more involved, and frankly, is why I don’t let the capitalization eat my lunch (currently).

Lars has told me in PM a couple months ago that he was going to grant me access needed, so I’ve intentionally left those to fix later. That way there’s far less risk (if any) to the notes [vs having to create a new flavor name just for caps, and then have to merge… Etc

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You may have mentioned not having the rights but I don’t recall. So I take that back.
The fixes are not just for caps. There are entire flavor names/flavor manufacturers that are muckity mucked.
It’s all good. This thread will probably fade into the back corner shortly anyway.

@jay210…really sorry if I jacked your thread. It wasn’t my intention.

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[quote=“TorturedZen, post:40, topic:222182”]
@jay210…really sorry if I jacked your thread. It wasn’t my intention.
[/quote]’

NP, I’m reading all the replies for interest, especially @Sprkslfly 's reply just above yours, which clarifies a lot!

Thanks for that one @Sprkslfly .

I’ve really missed KoW and JoJo, but had no idea til now just how much i was missing them (if that makes sense?) Clearly, appointing a whole new bunch of forum mods went nowhere towards replacing them .

I suspect most people thought (as I did) that you had pretty much the same powers as that pair, but evidently not. It is pretty damned absurd if you can’t just edit the flavour names.

I don’t get this. What gives? @daath ?

It’s nice to know that some people (well @anon28032772, at least) have no problem using the database just as it is. But as @Letitia pointed out, it all depends on how you’re using the site. If, like she and I, you’re entering the flavour in your stash chiefly, or partly, so you can click on it to read other people’s flavour notes, then you have to pick and choose between a host of variations; and whichever variation you choose, you then lose access to the other notes.

I also like to see which recipes use a particular flavour. Same problem there. And it’s infinitely worse with the less-common flavours, which sometimes never acquire a front runner, just an exponentially increasing list of variants. Oops! Did i say “list”? actually, it just isn’t possible to pull up a full list, ir even a list at all in many cases. @BikesAndBacon got his list of 8 variants by limiting himself to those who’d spelled “Crazy Creamy Custard” correctly. That list would represent the tip of the iceberg. There’s no conceivable search term that would throw up the rest. And what if you;re looking for, say, Strawberry from the same flavour house? No point in even attempting it is there? You’re only likely to find the ones that not only entered “strawberry” without any mis-spellings or typos, but also correctly gussed the right syntax…or made the same wrong guess as yourself.

But I’m not annoyed with those people, because I’m mildly dyslexic myself (and quite severely dyslexic when tired) and have co-ordination issues, which mean that I’m always making typos, which i sometimes notice and correct, and sometimes don’t. I’ve given up on correctly punctuating my posts, cos it’s enough of a challenge just making them legible, So I have all sympathy with those who might have similar problems.

What’s more, please let me repeat, a new user is highly unlikely to realise what a headache their typos etc will cause for other people Maybe some are half-brained louts but I think it’s a pretty safe bet that the vast majority are just like the rest of us in terms of intelligence, sense of responsibility, social cognition etc, etc.

It’s very easy and natural to make negative personality attributions against other people, unfortunately, especially when the only thing we know about those others is that they’re getting on our nerves. but it’s neither fair nor realistic in fact. It most often turns out that the main difference between yourself and the guy who’s getting on your nerves is situational,and nothing to do with personality. In this case, i’m guessing that the difference is mostly that they’re total newbies, and/or people who never read the forum and we’re not.

Sorry to get preachy, but we’re not gonna fix problems like this, IMO, if we’re continually basing our reasoning on a typical “us and them” type prejudice, rather than using our imagination. And it gets on my nerves when people don’t bother to use their imagination. Sorry. That’s not aimed at you @Sprkslfly

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