Music Theory

OK. I (think) that I can picture that. Seems like any desire of extreme bending of wrist “around” the neck may tend to be less “tempting” (and thus less likely to evolve) when playing guitar seated ?

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In photos the framing often makes “guitar heroes” appear “larger than life”. Jim Hendrix himself was (IIRC) around 5’6" in height - but appears to have had (relatively) large hands for his height. Being face to face with Pete Townsend and Stevie Ray Vaughn, I was amazed at how “small” these (relatively) short in stature fellows actually were/are. A fellow named Randy Hansen (who used to dress up like Jimi and played a decent “Hendrix cover show” here in the Seattle area) also had small, tiny hands (much like Stevie Ray Vaughn’s small sized hands). They all “got over it” quite famously, nevertheless ! :star_struck:

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Yeah, absolutely, hands vary, and the greats all find a way. Have you ever seen Frank Gambale? He has short, small hands, with stubby fingers, and his technique is absolutely astonishing. I think you’re right about the hand position being easier sitting, but not that much. If your playing is centred around large intervals then this is not for you, but for most (not all) people, this is the way to go. You have to if you want to bend strings.

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Just pick the guitar up using the fretting hand, trying to keep your wrist fairly straight, and you’re virtually there. Hope this helps.

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I have not but I’ll add it to my ‘things to work on’ list. Right now just focusing on connecting patterns so I can easily move beyond just 3 or 4 frets. To be honest this thread has morphed into way more theory than I’m comfortable contributing to, but I’ll be in the back corner lurking.

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“Standard” 12-Tone Scale Notes:

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 3 – 4 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

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Common “Blues” Pentatonic Scale Notes (the particular notes used appear in BOLD text):

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 3 – 4 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

The above Pentatonic (5-tone) scale uses notes derived from Aolean and Dorian modes.

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The following Pentatonic scale substitutes the Maj 3 (from Mixolydian mode) for the Min 3 (in the “Blues” Pentatonic scale shown above). That is the only difference between (these) Pentatonics:

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 34 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

(Actually), checking myself, and looking at my previous posted information, the (actual) Pentatonic scale derived from the (7-tone) Mixolydian scale is somewhat different:

Root Note ---------- Physical Movement

G (Mixolydian) --------- 2 2 - 3 - 2 3 [ called-out as 1, 2, maj3, 5, maj6 ]

D (Dorian) --------------- 3 2 - 2 - 3 2 [ called-out as 1, min3, 4, 5, min7 ]

A (Aolean) -------------- 3 2 - 2 - 3 2 [ called-out as 1, min3, 4, 5, min7 ]

This is the (strictly correct, physically shifted in half-steps to a new starting-point, true Pentatonic) scale:

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 3 – 4 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

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The important thing is to (quickly, discreetly) “try out” scale-tones - to hear their “perceptual viability”.

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Source: https://terryo.org/diaspora/Images/Quest-into-the-Unknown.gif

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That’s the right thing to do. Learn one scale all over the neck so that you’re really comfortable with it, and don’t have to think about it, before you start confusing yourself with more. I don’t want to come across as a know it all, but I am an accomplished player (nowhere near comparable to many though, so I don’t have delusions of grandeur) and I think I know what I’m talking about, and I love to help people. Just go through the scales for literally 5-10 minutes a day, 5 days a week for a month, and you’ll know it. THEN you can start to have fun with it. We learn by repetition, not by cramming. You can spend 16 hours on a Sunday working on it, but if you go back to it on Monday you’ll find that you’ve forgotten most of it. If you leave it until the following Sunday, chances are you’ll have forgotten it all. Hope this is of some help. Good luck, have fun. If you are unsure of anything, and you think I may be able to help, just let me know.

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You mentioned a few jazz guitarists. Curious as to what kind of things (in general) you enjoy listening to, and as well (not necessarily the same), enjoy playing on (guitar ?). :thinking:

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That all looks very academic and confusing to me, and would terrify a beginner. Minor pentatonic scales can be found on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th degrees of the major scale. Mixolydian is the 5th mode and does not have a minor pentatonic scale you can build on it, which is why I said it’s actually an altered pentatonic scale. Most blues players will play an Aminor pentatonic scale over the entirety of an A blues. Most are unaware that it’s only “correct” over the D7, over the rest of the tune it is functioning as an altered scale of some sort.

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I listen to all kinds of music, except that which my teenage son listens to. To be honest I don’t listen to much music anymore. I have devoted half of my life to it and sometimes it can be a painful experience for me, as I hold myself to such high standards. This is a character flaw, and has ruined my life. I have studied jazz theory, and I do like playing jazz, blues, funk and classical. I like a lot of fusion too. Even some “metal.” I can also enjoy the beatles and the beach boys. Wish I could write tunes and melodies like those guys. I love me some Mozart,Beethoven Debusy Stravinsky, I could go on forever. I try to keep an open mind, and open ears. How about you?

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We both mean well. It may be that the OP has/will learn to relate to his instrument(s) despite us. :joy:

I share (perhaps) similar “perfectionist” traits. Leaving “well enough alone” has its levels of complexity. In the early 2000s, I played less, listened to less music, and began to explore amateur photography.

Creating sounds, the perceptual feedback is immediate and instantaneous. Happening upon a beautiful creature in good light is a witnessing where having the humble forethought enough to record many shots (perhaps varying perspective, framing, depth of field, etc), and after sifting out 2-3% “keepers” - and from that ~1% “gems”, then carefully processing that few, one only “knows what it is that they have” at the very end of the process. Quite opposite from making sounds in that (temporally reversed) sense.

I discovered (mostly electric) R&B via Jimi Hendrix (Beck, Santana, Clapton, Buchanan), and love Buddy Guy, Albert, and Freddie King (as far as guitarists) as well as various R&R performers in the early 1970s. My tastes go a bit wider than that in some respects with certain jazz artists (Davis, Ellis, Coryell, Roberts) - but as a player I self-taught, forming a vernacular of muscle-memory “gestures” expressing melodic emotional feeling that is the (true) “root” of expressive improvisational experiences. Played along with a ton of records, drawing from the “greats”, and after ~20 years of dinking around, managed to at times “make my guitar talk”. Gratifying to have developed an interesting “magic box”.

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For those who are wondering an A minor pentatonic played over a standard A blues gives you a #9 over the A7, and a #5 and a #9 over the E7, all of which are frequently used alterations over dominant chords, especially in jazz. More to the point, they sound good. Hope this is of use to someone.

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This is all well and good for someone who is used to and/or prefers learning theory and musical concepts in a ‘written-out’ format. I wish I could say it works for me. There’s a considerable number books I have accumulated over the years, everything from the basics to the CAGED system and methods. I’ve barely read any of them. (Although my collection of Guitar Player and Guitar World magazines is fairly impressive. I’ve read those!)

Regrettably I am a person that requires visuals. I’ll say “show me” while you sit across from me, and you show me. I’m the guy that needs to see in real time, not in print, what a “b5” is, what a b5 does for a minor pentatonic scale and how it’s done. Ah ha! I can add my middle finger to the pattern. I now have a minor pentatonic blues. 1,2,3 instead of 1,3 (from a tab perspective).

I’m envious of the knowledge in this thread and much respect to you guys. But I don’t need to know how to build a clock if I ask what time it is. (or do I?) :sunglasses:

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I empathize with you cognitive distaste for trying take in conceptual frameworks surrounding structure and form (that’s not uncommon, and I myself share similar characteristics, including inborn impatience).

In all of the videos (that you have watched) of the “greats” playing their guitars, how much have you been able to learn from watching their hands and finger movements ? Not much ? Do you think that if they were sitting in front of you in your home while doing what they do the situation would be improved?

Understanding of what and how one might want to do when playing an instrument, and the application and evolution of “musical talent” is (IMO) not a commodity that one can purchase. It involves some measure of (not necessarily easy) efforts - that the experience of the joy of liking what one is (as a result of such efforts) “putting forth” may (eventually) be found to be worthwhile, personally gratifying.

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Conceptualizing about these things does not seem to be able to be any simpler than the counting of the number of half-steps - frets on a given guitar string, as shifted by (5, or in the case of the open-B string, 4) half-steps when moving in between the various strings ( E - A - D - G - B - E ). This can be done !

Remember the (physical movement in half-steps)" Pentatonic" pattern of: 3 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 (of the latter two scales shown below). Work from that as a “core pattern” while playing-along with (“Minor”, because of the incorporation of a “flatted” 3 tone) “blues”. You (might) try a major 3 (instead). Figure out how to translate your think between adjacent strings, and actually play, play away (a lot, and for a long time). Adapt and evolve your actions to what (to you) may sound interesting and beautiful, expressive, etc.

(I recommend) that one always “play first for their own enjoyments, and not for others”.

Root Note ---------- Physical Movement

G ( Mixolydian ) --------- 2 2 - 3 - 2 3 [ called-out as 1, 2, maj3, 5, maj6 ]

D ( Dorian ) --------------- 3 2 - 2 - 3 2 [ called-out as 1, min3, 4, 5, min7 ]

A ( Aolean ) -------------- 3 2 - 2 - 3 2 [ called-out as 1, min3, 4, 5, min7 ]

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Keyword here is ‘cognitive’. The struggle is real trust me.

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I can dig it, my friend ! The only option to being able to (eventually) come to remembering “where one presently is” (relative to some particular “root” reference tone) is to play any/all of the possible notes in between. The scale/chord notes that “don’t work” (aesthetically) will (presumably) tend to be eliminated.

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"The Blues Note." @TorturedZen

I once showed it too a friend… and his music teacher impressed asked him who showed you those scales. Apparently his teacher didn’t even know about the magic notes lol

Have fun you’ll sound like a pro.! You can find it & use it in any mode also.

http://www.simplifyingtheory.com/blues-scale-blue-note/

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the Blue note is a passing note … it must appear just among other notes and not as a resting note. … the Blue note is a dissonant note to the natural diatonic scale. We should not “rest” in it because this would sound like untune.

The novel term, “untune” is a brand new one. “Cordance” is in the ear of the beholder. Miles Davis’ genius was amazing ability to create tension before “release”. Most (sans “drone”) music involves this.

My good friend Arto Lindsay moved to NYC in the 1970s, and became the de-facto grandfather of “screaming and scronking” (taking absolute care to eschew and avoid all recognizable “consonances”). When I took some (vain in my youth) satisfaction (early on) in the fact that I was a “better” guitarist (in my own estimations), Arto became a “cultural icon”. So much for my own irrelevant personal viewpoint !

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Yea you need to tinker with it. Like bending up to it or bend down from it. or just whip it in real fast. Thats how Hendrik and other icons use it - “Tinker” around with - as you put it. (We should not “rest” in it because this would sound like untune.)

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Perhaps combinations involving (simultaneously sounded, as in chords) single-steps (such as 1 and Min 2, or 5 and Min 6) are arguably “more discordant” (relative to 1 and Flat 5). The existence of the Major 7 (at one half-step below the Octave) is said (in my readings) to cause a sense of tension that presses for resolution back to the “root”. When (perceived sense of the) reference “root” tone changes (not uncommon in types of music), all of the (themselves relative) movements may change accordingly (through subjective “prisms” of perceptual aesthetics, making any definitive “objective generalizations” unlikely). (If and when) the “modes” are (correspondingly) shifted, the piece remains in the same “key”.

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