I played nothing but blues for years when I started, and knew absolutely nothing about theory. In retrospect, it held me back enormously. It really is easy if you don’t start by feeling bamboozled before you even begin. Firstly, do you know where the notes are on the guitar? I didn’t. The single most useful thing I ever did was to learn that. Do you know how a major scale is formed? It’s only 7 notes. Once you know a major scale, you also have, by default, learnt all of the modes. My advice would be to learn those two things (10 minutes a day, not a lot) then a whole new world will open up for you. You really won’t regret it. What have you got to lose? As for your analogy, no you don’t need to know how to build a clock to tell the time, but you do need to know a little math, and recognise numbers. I was once like you, trust me, and probably more stubborn. It really was the best thing I ever did. Only wish I had done it sooner. Good luck. Oh, and once you know those two things you can learn to build chords. You’ll never need a chord book again, and the books you do have will make a lot more sense, hopefully. I have to add that you don’t think of this when playing. Playing is still, hopefully from the heart, you just have a lot more tools to work with. You can always get back to me if you are unsure of anything, and I’ll do my best to help. Sorry, I’m going on a bit I know, but I’m just trying to help. What initially sounds very daunting actually isn’t once you understand the concepts. Eg. A Cmajor scale is CDEFGAB. If you give each note a number, you get 1234567. If you do that twice, you get CDEFGAB CDEFGAB, or 123456789 10 11 12 13 14. 15. So D is 2/9. A sharp 9 merely means that you raise the D one fret to a D sharp. A flat 9 merely means that you lower it by one fret to Dflat. The same for the flat/sharp 5. However, you need to know where the notes are, and how scales are formed to be able to do this. A “tone” (T) is 2 frets, and a" semi tone " (St) is one fret. Now if I tell you that a major scale is T, T, St, T, T, T, St. You can work it out yourself, and if you know where the notes are you can learn every major scale easily. If you have learnt the" caged"system (which is VERY useful) you will then be able to play every major scale, everywhere on the neck. Hope this is of some help. It’s turning into a book lol.
Tensions #5, #9 etc are not resting notes, this is true. (although some great players can, on occasion do it, but it’s not advisable). Most tensions occur on dominant chords that are resolving to chords that are up a fourth, or down a fifth. Eg. a G7 resolving to a C. The C, can be major, minor or dominant, so G7-Cmaj, G7-Cmin, G7-C7. If you are good you can play what ever you want over the G7 as long as you resolve it properly on the C. This progression is called a “cadence” in classical music.
I thought that I was about the only poster at occasional risk of exceeding the (mysterious) “maximum number of daily edits”. Good to read your thoughts. “Paragraph breaks” would be a “reading aid” ! 
Point taken. This started out as a short post telling Tortured Zen just to learn the notes and how to form a major scale. Then I couldn’t stop adding stuff, lol. I really enjoy teaching, and I love to learn myself. Also I like him a lot. The man has done 3 tours of duty for his country, and whether you agree with any particular war or not, you have to have nothing but absolute respect for those people. I do anyway, and I just want to help him. Sometimes my mouth can run away from me too. Which is in danger of happening again, lol . Bye, (for now). I’ve just looked back at my post, and it is beginning to look like a novel. (see, I’m doing it again!)
Notes on the guitar…not sure what you mean. I know there are 7 notes… 12 counting sharps and flats. B-C and E-F being the exceptions. Now if you mean where all of them are on the fretboard, my answer is… kind of. Because of the ADHD, I have to pause and then count (either adding or subtracting) relative to the open string and which fret. Does that make sense? That’s where the struggle starts.
I know the major scale fundamentals. I think of the intervals as
2 whole steps-1 half step-3 whole steps-1 half step). I’m somewhat familiar with the Modes (Santana=Dorian lol). One problem I need to overcome though is my tendency to gravitate back to pentatonic positions.
Carlos (to my ears), in melodies, likes the Min 6 very much, with some Min 2 (also) thrown in.
The Pentatonic (physical movement in 1/2-tones) pattern (counting from the reference Tonic) is:
3 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 2
Which is “called out” as: Min 3, 4, 5, Min 7, Octave (root)
The above 5-tone scale incorporates a “core structure” of both ( A ) Aolean as well as ( D ) Dorian.
( A ) Aolean differs from ( D ) Dorian only by one tone-position.
Aolean uses a Min 6 (as opposed to using the Maj 6 present in Dorian).
Similarly, …
( G ) Mixolydian only differs form ( C ) Ionian by one tone-position.
Mixolydian uses a Min 7 (as opposed to using the Maj 7 present in Ionian).
In fact, …
Each of the “Greek scale-modes” - specifically, when they are arranged in ascending 5ths (the same as descending 4ths) - only differs from adjacent neighbors by one single tone-position. Elegant simplicity !
Similarly (again), …
( E ) Phrygian only differs form ( A ) Aolean by one tone-position.
Phrygian uses a Min 2 (as opposed to using the Maj 2 present in Aolean).
Some of the Greek scale-modes, arranged in what are ascending 5ths (meaning 7 half-tone movements upwards in pitch to a new reference starting-point). Inter-scale changes are noted:
( C ) Ionian
( G ) Mixolydian ( substitutes the Min 7 for Maj 7 )
( D ) Dorian ( substitutes the Min 3 for Maj 3 )
( A ) Aolean ( substitutes the Min 6 for Maj 6 )
( E ) Phrygian ( substitutes the Min 2 for Maj 2 )
Thus, one (in playing 7-tone scales) can just decide:
On a Maj or Min 3;
On a Maj or Min 7;
On a Maj or Min 6;
On a Maj or Min 2.
One’s ear can determine the perceived appropriateness of the above choices (quickly, with practice).
Sometimes, the adding of (any) Maj/Min 7, or Maj/Min 6, or Maj/Min 2 may not “work”. No sweat !
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(Once again), I would encourage you (on some rainy day) to contemplate the remarkable symmetry (or movements in 1/2-tones) centered around the “A” note (the musical 5th of the Root starting on “D” ).
As well, one can (easily) see how each of the (shifted upwards by 5th intervals) Greek “modes” differs (from its adjacent "neighbors) by one change in the physical position of one associated scale-tone - and it always involves “flatting” a note (a Major becomes a Minor), when arranged as shown, being shifted successively upwards by 5th intervals).
The most (to me) interesting aspect of the arrangement of the Greek modes is the link (albeit somewhat subjective, for sure) is how the (possibly evoked) “emotional feel” of the particular scale-modes changes - between the “happier” Major 3rds of Ionian and Mixolydian, to the “neutral” Dorian mode in the middle of the rows, and on to the “Minor” (flatted) 6 of Aolean mode, and the “Minor” (flatted 6 and 2) of Phrygian mode (which starts on “E” note).
Root Note
C (Ionian) --------------- 2 2 1 - 2 - 2 2 1
G (Mixolydian) --------- 2 2 1 - 2 - 2 1 2
D (Dorian) ------------- 2 1 2 --[ 2 ]-- 2 1 2
A (Aolean) -------------- 2 1 2 - 2 - 1 2 2
E (Phrygian) ------------1 2 2 - 2 - 1 2 2
.
Sure, all the (less simple to describe) chord-harmonization stuff is good stuff - but I myself also find it to be quite complicated (in no small part because of the IMO absolutely Byzantine systems of esoteric metaphors that students of music are often asked to digest - long and well before they actually take up an instrument for the essential, experientially irreplaceable, purpose of learning how to make their own instruments “talk”). “Without prejudice” towards complexities per se, I am aiming for (relative) simplicity.
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These “hep cats” have a way of “fussing with” each other’s approaches, but “tear the house down”:
And I appreciate yours as well as RK’s words, however lengthy or short they need to be. As I was pondering (re-reading over and over) all these replies, a question comes to mind for you guys. And @muth, @Freddie3 also if they’re reading…it seems all of you have had some type of formal training either with instructors or, in RK’s case, being fortunate enough to have had exposure to some well known musicians.
At what point in the learning process, did it finally ‘click’? What was the one thing that, above all else, gave you that ‘Ah Ha’ epiphany?
It took ~10 years of self-teaching, practicing to begin to like my own output. At ~20 years, I was in my “prime” (able to play without worrying about what to play next, which frees the “musical soul” to soar).
The moment (described above in an earlier post on this thread) where I discovered that the very interesting (newly heard) guitar-track (along with and “mixed-in” with Jeff Beck’s “Blue Wind”) that I was listening intently was (in fact) my own playing ! That realization really “floored me”. At that point, I understood that “left and right” brains (so to speak) can come, with practice, to operate independently.
So you were jamming along with the song? How could you not know it was you, or did I miss something?
Yes, my dominant way of learning was to play along with various blues, jazz, rock records that I like, in order to learn a few things here and there - over and over again for years. “Borrow from the greats” !
Well, after playing for a while, it sort of feels like what the body does in the course of playing on an instrument becomes encoded in “muscle memory” (so to speak). The hands are just a means by which the musical “mind” (ear, emotion, inspiration, and such) “navigates” the physical world when “listening” and “talking” (to and with) music. Once one no longer feels compelled while playing to worry about what they will next play on the instrument, those (physical) faculties (can) become virtually sub-conscious (entirely “tacit”) processes. They become “emotionally expressive” and well known physical gestures.
That is why many musicians can: play in the dark, without need to look at what they are doing; and/or carry on a conversation (simultaneously while playing music); and/or think about what they may buy at the store for refreshments later; and/or any number of other “focal” conscious processes. In the “Blue Wind” case, those mysterious (“muscle memory”) processes were apparently proceeding without any need for conscious attention from the “focally oriented” portion of my “mind”. I was used to (familiar with) the “lines” that I was playing, and was also used to the “lines” (already existing in the “Blue Wind” mix). Once I realized that this interesting “newly discovered” guitar-track was actually my own playing, it was a shocking (but unmistakable) moment. Such events are humbling and awe inspiring at the same time.
That I can relate to! I spent about a week jamming to Walk Away (James Gang) and pretty much nailed Joe. Aside from the controlled feedback in the background. That was the song I popped my cherry with at my first open jam.
I assume that you (probably already) have seen/enjoyed the (great) Joe Walsh (with Steve Cropper and James Taylor) performances at the 2004 Crossroads Guitar Festival (?):
Hi, Tortured Zen (I love that name). When did I have my “ah ha” moment? God, that’s a tough one. I’m not sure that I had one to be honest. I think it was more of a gradual thing. I put in so, so many hours, day after day, for years. I think it was when I realised that scales and arpeggios and stuff were like colours on an artists pallet, and the more I had, the better my painting was likely to be, and that scales were not boring, but boring people made them sound that way. I also realised that everything I was already playing “from the heart,” was based on scales, I just didn’t know it. It sounds to me that you’re on the right track. Learn the caged system. It makes playing things in a different key SO easy, if you know where the notes are on the guitar (so, 10th fret on the E string is D. On the G string it’s F etc.) Once you have learned those things, and you can join the “cages” together, then the world is your oyster. It will feel like you are on your favourite bike, on a long open road, and the sun is shining. Good luck sir. Any queries, just ask and I’ll do my best to answer them for you. Oh, and when you’re learning which fret is what note, dont bother with the sharps and flats! Once you have cracked the main notes it’s easy just to move up or down one fret to find them. Oh, (here I go again) I’ve thought of something much better. Learning all the caged system positions at once is a lot of work, without much fun, so just do one a month. Here’s which one you should start with. I suspect you know the A minor pentatonic at the 5th fret. Put your index finger on the 5th fret of the 1st string, then, (using one finger per fret) , put your little finger on the 8th fret. Do the same on 2nd string. On the 3rd string play the 5th and 7th notes, then the same on the 4th and 5th strings, then the 5th and 8th frets (as strings 1&2)on the 6th string. That is the A minor pentatonic scale. You should find one of the “cages” looks very similar to this. It has an extra note on the 7th fret on strings 1&2(and 6)and on the 4th fret on strings 3&4.This is the Dorian mode. These both sound great over an A minor vamp. Jam along and see if you can sound like Santana. It’s a great, easy mode. Mix the two scales and have fun. This could (hopefully) be your “ah ha” moment. I hope so. Let me know how you get on. One last thing. Now if you move the whole thing up to, let’s say the 8th fret which is C, you can now play the same stuff over a C minor vamp! Neat eh?
I know you asked for 1 but here’s 2 
1st: When you find the instrument (bass drums guitar or whatever) that you know you want to master and spend the rest of your life practicing.
2st: When you find the type of music that you know you want to spend the rest of your life playing. But that doesn’t mean you cant try and play other types of music.
Without the desire and commitment… Im guessing it would be empty after a while and you’ll give up.
Agreed. It’s hard enough if you are committed, and there will always be something you don’t know, or can’t do.
The most important part of our lives - our sensations, emotions, desires, and aspirations -
takes place in a universe of illusions which science can attenuate or destroy,
but which it is powerless to enrich.
-Joseph Wood Krutch
The most exciting rhythms seem unexpected and complex,
the most beautiful melodies simple and inevitable.
-W. H. Auden
We call first truths those we discover after all the others.
-Albert Camus
The scholar seeks, the artist finds.
-Andre Gide
Being is the great explainer.
-Thoreau
Existence is the great humbler.
-Raven Knightly
Love it ! We must be (sort of) “soul mates”. My motto has always been, “my words turn into sentences, my sentences into paragraphs, my paragraphs into pages, my pages into dissertations, etc, etc.” … 
My monthly choice for the late and gloomy Winter months might well tend towards “Phrygian”. Right ?
Right. Good choice. Very dark. Dorian is bright and funky. Don’t want to give Zen too much though. Start slowly, understand it, and internalise it. Feel it. It’s a great mode to start with as it’s used so much our ears can relate to it easily. He’d probably like Aeolian too, from what he’s said in the past, but “slowly, slowly, catch a monkey.” Too much can overwhelm. That’s plenty to be getting on with. Phrygian dominant is a good one as well. There are lots and lots. Let’s not go down that rabbit hole just yet. - Some great quotes you put there though. Camus, first thing in the morning. Lol.
(Even before my precious little “discovery”), before any “thought-forms” existed in my mind:
Root Note
C (Ionian) --------------- 2 2 1 - 2 - 2 2 1
G (Mixolydian) --------- 2 2 1 - 2 - 2 1 2
D (Dorian) ------------- 2 1 2 --[ 2 ]-- 2 1 2
A (Aolean) -------------- 2 1 2 - 2 - 1 2 2
E (Phrygian) ------------1 2 2 - 2 - 1 2 2
“Dorian” (with its Maj 6 in addition to its Maj 2) always struck me as a bit “bland”. I settled on the descriptor “neutral” (note that the 5th of (D) Dorian is the A note located in the center).
When I chose a Min 3 (instead of the Maj 3 of Mixolydian), I often found myself wanting to flat the Maj 6 to a Min 6, instead [at which point it is then (A) Aolean]. That is (surely, no doubt here) is Carlos’ favorite move, as well as also sometimes flatting the Maj 2 to a Min 2 [at which point it is then (E) Phrygian].
On the Maj 3 side (Mixolydian and Ionian, as located above Dorian in my diagram), I rarely found the Maj 7 (of Ionian) interesting, and tended to hold in with the Min 7 of Mixolydian, Dorian, and Aolean. Just my own druthers, all too “well entrenched” - but quite adequate for conceptualizing what “works”.
The thing is that I am not highly swift on the chords (or corresponding chord harmonizations). Dyads and Triads, and 3-5-7-9 chords, sure ! My “Improvising Jazz” by Jerry Coker is great, and I can usually figure out what is being talked about - but (since) I improvised melodies over what I was playing with (almost all recordings), it became easier to sense the present location of the “Root” reference, and just quickly drill through Maj/Min 3, Maj/Min 7, Maj/Minor 6, and Maj/Min 2 decisions, dropping-out what obviously did not seem to comfortably “fit” in pleasing ways. Really simple to accomplish (once one’s ear becomes “tuned” from listening as well as playing experience).
The Guitar is so Versatile and Magical… so many flavors, colors and sounds to make with it. Best thing I did or 3rd epiphany was ditch the pick and use only fingers.
No this isnt me. I wish I could play like this tho. 
