Rayon is 100% cellulose, itâs the plant matter that makes trees and even cotton
If you refined cotton you could make rayon.
Itâs often made from wood pulp itâs not synthetic or a polymer either cotton vapers are already vaping smaller amounts of rayon and we also eat this stuff daily
Cotton is a mixture of organic compounds including cellulose (rayon) and proteins so Iâm pretty skeptical cotton would cause less issues than rayon, as torturedZen pointed it wouldnât surprise if it was rayon dust or little fibres going free, rayon does that much more than cotton
I have been using rayon for over a year and will never go back to cotton
I switch between 8 or so different flavours every few MLâs and rayon doesenât hold onto flavours a few vapes and you only get the new flavour
The wick lasts at least twice as long as cotton and dosenât carameliZe or gunk up like cotton never seen a wick go darker than the juice vaping
it wicks FAST and I prefer the flavour I get from it
But wicking with rayon is harder to get right you have to spend more time making your wick, I can give tips if anyone is interested though
There are also different types as well as processing methodsâŚand with this being a fringe industry, Iâm not confident in the sellers, for our intended purpose (never mind the issues surrounding the product). Because the majority arenât going to divulge their source (point of origin) of the rayon, much less be aware of the process their manufacturer uses.
If thatâs the case, then how can they (the link above) go on to say:
200°C = 392°F
Which is well within the usage of many TC vapers (and definitely in range of most high power vapers).
Now, Iâll say write clearly, Iâm NOT a chemist, nor even remotely qualified as such. But Iâm not going to take âvape marketingâ speak for matters of science (in cases such as this). The same way I donât buy into the bs about D/A/AP, because if diacetyl was a threat at the levels we use them at, and cigarettes have 100âs to 1000âs of times the amount of diacetyl, then IF there was a threat, shouldnât we have a long scientifically proven history of millions of smokers with popcorn lung??
But I digress.
Now the following only applies to the upper end (a low percentage of vapers), but is still worth mentioning (to the topic at large, because it could also explain some of the nastiness of the dry hit):
310°C = 590°F
Still within the range of many vaping devices.
I will definitely say thank you@warkwarth for replying, because even though I (currently) stand in uncertainty, your thoughtful response caused me to continue to look further into the science of it.
While I still donât have a full understanding, I have a better understanding.
Other points (from my link above) I found interesting, and worth sharing:
Also worth noting IMO, that there is ZERO mention of Rayon in the link.
Looks like Iâll need to research further about the science involved with the relationship between the twoâŚ
thanks to you as well im no chemist either and I actually like when people debate
I donât take it personally or anything itâs for the greater good really.
Upon further reading it looks like rayon (cellulose) IS considered a polymer and so is cotton but that dosenât mean plastics, wikipedia says itâs a substance or material consisting of very large molecules, or macromolecules, composed of many repeating subunits.[
From what I have read depolymeriZation is a common process and it looks like cotton goes through the same process but with different starting ingredients, cotton has a high % of cellulose plus other things
In the link you gave about cellulose it even states cotton is 50 - 95% cellulose at the top left (at least the cotton they used in the test) but the caveat is there many grades of rayon and cotton with different refining methods
Rayon is just cotton with fewer ingredients and the heat propertys have been tested and documented by multiple vapers, if depolymeriZation is an issue with rayon I think itâs even worse with cotton but that is just my opinion from using it
less gunking and the wicks last 2 - 4 times longer to seems like it is breaking down slower than cotton does
Thank you so much for holding this outlook!
I share it FWIW.
This single line nicely sums up what has remained as the central point of contention for me over the last few years of reading vapers thoughts.
For my position (point of view), itâs the exact opposite. Cotton is the (only 100%) natural material (for our purposes) in the vaping discussion.
Now, I also want to make clear that I donât believe that all cotton on the vape market is pure (or has had zero processing). Quite the opposite Iâm sure.
But in keeping focused with the base material (cotton vs rayon), Iâm having difficulty (thus far) finding the composition of rayon (with any scientific [read as non-marketing, and non-wiki type stuff] that âjust anybodyâ can add their non-accredited two cents in.)
One of the things I did stumble across (which is the history I am aware of, and why I currently have the reservations I have) was a history of Rayon, according to Mitsubishi Rayon Co Ltd. , Japan:
Iâve heard of, seen, touched, and stood in fields full of raw cotton. But (to date) Iâve never once heard of, nor read about a field of rayon (for cultivation) or ârayon seedsâ for planting.
While Iâm open to the idea of such existing (Iâm well aware I donât know even a smidgen of âeverythingâ lol), I have yet to learn about it.
I personally think that a LOT of the references to rayon being âthe same as cottonâ (structurally speaking; because of the shared trait of containing cellulose) are in error.
Things frequently have similar base compounds (look at all the things that contain oxygen for example), but that does not mean theyâre the same.
really makes me glad that I tend to vape around 30-40w or so (322-400 in TC judging from the real time readings the Topsides give if theyâre remotely accurate)
makes me really want to find the equivalent information for cotton!!
After a little further digging⌠I found a preview of the book, that gives enough concrete information IMO to sufficiently answer questions Iâve had about the whole âis rayon real (natural), or synthetic (man-made)?â question thatâs been eating at me few I first read about it the use of it for wicking here years ago.
Soooo!
Iâve learned that I wasnât clear in my use of the term (as it applies here) synthetic (when I said synthetic polymer, earlier in the initial conversation). What I intended was to say by using synthetic was to say man-made.
To me (a layman) synthetic has always equated to ânot naturalâ or man-made.
Although it is glaringly obvious (to me) that there was a need to distinguish source materials for the folks in the industry, or they wouldnât have created such classifications. (Derp. lol)
What it also reveals (in my opinion) is how some marketing entities have seemingly once again taken the facts, and hand-picked key bullet points (keywords), and âredefinedâ the truth.
Yes, thereâs cellulose.
Yes it contains ânatural fibreâ origins
But itâs still a FUCKING MAN-MADE PRODUCT. /frustration is at the lies. Not anyone in the thread (irony) here!
Other shots I snapped, but am too frustrated to explain further why I took them at the momentâŚ
All material is copyrighted (Iâm sure) and is only referenced for the purposes of this discussion.
All credits due are to the author: J. Gordon Cook.
Donât get hung up on the word âpolymerâ. We usually associate polymer with plastics, but carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids are polymers.
Depolymerization is the process or act of breaking down a polymer into its monomeric components. An example of a biological depolymerization is the digestion of food.
I donât know about all the technical gobbledegook that had transpired here. All I do know is that I have used rayon (a box from Sallyâs Beauty Supply, $11.00) for five years. Still have a f-ton of it left. I have used it in rdtas, rtas and rdas. Why, is when I first started making my own coils, I couldnât stand the taste of breaking in the cotton. Why I still use it is because itâs what I know and it works for me. The only dry hit I ever get is when Iâm chain vaping and forget to squonk. Although, I still havenât figured out the Profile rda or rta yet. Use what works for you. No one elseâs opinion matters.
After confirming that itâs totally âsyntheticâ (man-made) chuckles, no.
I recall the dry hits from silica all too well, and if they are worse than that, I want no part of it. lol
It may have started off as a natural plant fibre, but the instant they turned it into a liquidâŚ
In either of the cases above, IMO, thereâs no longer anything natural about it. Itâs been manipulated beyond the point of being able to think of it as natural.
I can understand that.
I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, the cotton for what we use, has only been âwashedâ (in my mindâs eye). Yes, it could be bleached, or whatever else they do to clean it. But, as far as I know, itâs never reached a state of âdecompositionâ (like what rayon has), and then ârematerializedâ through artificial means.
Itâs strange, I realize, but this is one of those personal things. Itâs really small in relation to the big picture. And damned near anything in vaping is far and away better than the damage being done by smoking (barring using flavors that contain oils, etc).
But in the few things that we actually have control over (well, those of us who build and wick our own lol), I just feel more at ease âaccidentally breathing in slightly singed cottonâ, than I do âaccidentally breathing in slightly singed artificial materialâ.
totally understand I feel the same way about inhaling singed cotton vs rayon since our wicks should always be wet It shouldnât really happen
The fact that it changes states to a liquid before it is made into rayon dosenât bother me so much, we can change nicotine to a powder or liquid or gas and itâs still nicotine
For me iâm more worried about the by-products from vaping camareliZed gunk (acrolein, formaldehyde etc)
Some flavours like watermelon would stick around for a full 5ML tank or longer with cotton but that never happens with rayon
The way I can switch between 8 different flavours and have no previous flavour within a few vapes hints that juice isnât getting stuck in the wick and cooking or camareliZing
The wicks always look cleaner and much less dark
My anecdotal opinion anyways
And yes a thousands if not millions of times less harmful than cigarettes
just look at how much radiation we are not getting anymore
Iâve been avoiding replying in this thread, but what the hell, itâs my birthday (66), and Iâm feelinâ a little frisky today. The cotton / rayon discussions are always good ones.
For the record, I switched from cotton to rayon about 4 years ago. The natural vs man made debate is something Iâve always found to be odd.
VG - man made
PG - man made
Nic - man made extraction process
Flavors - man made
Coils - man made alloys
Tanks - man made alloys, glass, plastics
Virtually everything we ingest, vaping is man made.
I just donât get it.
But like everything else in vaping, the outcome is a series of personal tastes & choices. That part is easy to get.
Thanks, and totally agree about not wanting to inhale burned rayon or cotton!
Iâve only had one dry hit, early on, in my 5+ years of vaping. It was with cotton. It was an idiot attack of galactic proportions. I canât blame it on the cotton.
With rayon, I get the slightest hint, taste-wise, that the wick on the verge of needing juice. I havenât had a dry hit with rayon (knock on wood) but I canât imagine it would be worse than that cotton dry hit flame thrower that nailed me once.
