Rayon users please read

[Sprkslfly]

@warkwarth

It’s often made from wood pulp it’s not synthetic or a polymer either

There are also different types as well as processing methods…and with this being a fringe industry, I’m not confident in the sellers, for our intended purpose (never mind the issues surrounding the product). Because the majority aren’t going to divulge their source (point of origin) of the rayon, much less be aware of the process their manufacturer uses.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/cellulose-i#:~:text=There%20are%20four%20different%20polymorphs,strains%20with%20intersheet%20hydrogen%20bonding.

@warkwarth

it’s not synthetic or a polymer either

If that’s the case, then how can they (the link above) go on to say:

Above 200 °C, thermal decomposition and depolymerization occur.

200°C = 392°F
Which is well within the usage of many TC vapers (and definitely in range of most high power vapers).

Now, I’ll say write clearly, I’m NOT a chemist, nor even remotely qualified as such. But I’m not going to take “vape marketing” speak for matters of science (in cases such as this). The same way I don’t buy into the bs about D/A/AP, because if diacetyl was a threat at the levels we use them at, and cigarettes have 100’s to 1000’s of times the amount of diacetyl, then IF there was a threat, shouldn’t we have a long scientifically proven history of millions of smokers with popcorn lung??
But I digress.

Now the following only applies to the upper end (a low percentage of vapers), but is still worth mentioning (to the topic at large, because it could also explain some of the nastiness of the dry hit):

Between 310 and 350 °C, additional volatile products are formed by dehydration of the anhydroglucoses (5-hydroxymethyl-2-furfural, 2-furyl hydroxymethyl ketone, and levoglucosenone).

310°C = 590°F
Still within the range of many vaping devices.

I will definitely say thank you @warkwarth for replying, because even though I (currently) stand in uncertainty, your thoughtful response caused me to continue to look further into the science of it.
While I still don’t have a full understanding, I have a better understanding.

Other points (from my link above) I found interesting, and worth sharing:

There are four different polymorphs of cellulose: cellulose I, II, III, and IV.

Naturally occurring cellulose is known as cellulose I, which exists in parallel strands without intersheet hydrogen bonding.

Cellulose II is thermodynamically more stable and exists in antiparallel strains with intersheet hydrogen bonding. The difference in properties of cellulose I and II arises due to changes in crystal structure.

Cellulose III is amorphous and obtained by treatment of cellulose I or II with amines.

Cellulose IV is obtained after treatment of cellulose III with glycerol at very high temperatures [7,17,18].

Within the framework of this chapter only cellulose I and cellulose II will be considered.

Also worth noting IMO, that there is ZERO mention of Rayon in the link.
Looks like I’ll need to research further about the science involved with the relationship between the two…

[warkwarth]

thanks to you as well im no chemist either and I actually like when people debate
I don’t take it personally or anything it’s for the greater good really.

Upon further reading it looks like rayon (cellulose) IS considered a polymer and so is cotton but that dosen’t mean plastics, wikipedia says it’s a substance or material consisting of very large molecules, or macromolecules, composed of many repeating subunits.[

From what I have read depolymeriZation is a common process and it looks like cotton goes through the same process but with different starting ingredients, cotton has a high % of cellulose plus other things

In the link you gave about cellulose it even states cotton is 50 - 95% cellulose at the top left (at least the cotton they used in the test) but the caveat is there many grades of rayon and cotton with different refining methods

Rayon is just cotton with fewer ingredients and the heat propertys have been tested and documented by multiple vapers, if depolymeriZation is an issue with rayon I think it’s even worse with cotton but that is just my opinion from using it

less gunking and the wicks last 2 - 4 times longer to seems like it is breaking down slower than cotton does

[JiM210]

I like a good discussion of a fresh topic

[Sprkslfly]

@warkwarth

I actually like when people debate
I don’t take it personally or anything it’s for the greater good really.

Thank you so much for holding this outlook!
I share it FWIW.

@warkwarth

Rayon is just cotton with fewer ingredients

This single line nicely sums up what has remained as the central point of contention for me over the last few years of reading vapers thoughts.

For my position (point of view), it’s the exact opposite. Cotton is the (only 100%) natural material (for our purposes) in the vaping discussion.

Now, I also want to make clear that I don’t believe that all cotton on the vape market is pure (or has had zero processing). Quite the opposite I’m sure.

But in keeping focused with the base material (cotton vs rayon), I’m having difficulty (thus far) finding the composition of rayon (with any scientific [read as non-marketing, and non-wiki type stuff] that “just anybody” can add their non-accredited two cents in.)

One of the things I did stumble across (which is the history I am aware of, and why I currently have the reservations I have) was a history of Rayon, according to Mitsubishi Rayon Co Ltd. , Japan:

Rayon, the first universally popular man-made fiber, was taken up eagerly by Japanese industry in 1929. The plantcellulose-derived material was first known as “artificial silk” or “wood silk” until the term “rayon” was coined in 1924. Rayon was inspired by the need to reproduce chemically what a silkworm does in creating silk from its own body fluids. In the industrial process, cellulose is converted to a liquid compound and then back to cellulose in the form of fiber. The cellulose is usually derived from soft woods or the short fibers adhering to cotton seeds.

Shortages of cotton, wool, and other raw materials led the government to encourage the production of man-made and synthetic fibers, and these shortages became worse as World War II began.

I’ve heard of, seen, touched, and stood in fields full of raw cotton. But (to date) I’ve never once heard of, nor read about a field of rayon (for cultivation) or “rayon seeds” for planting.
While I’m open to the idea of such existing (I’m well aware I don’t know even a smidgen of “everything” lol), I have yet to learn about it.

I personally think that a LOT of the references to rayon being “the same as cotton” (structurally speaking; because of the shared trait of containing cellulose) are in error.

Things frequently have similar base compounds (look at all the things that contain oxygen for example), but that does not mean they’re the same.

Another interesting tidbit: Study on the pyrolysis of wood-derived rayon fiber by thermogravimetry–mass spectrometry:

Following an initial plateau region, the wood-derived rayon fiber rapidly decomposes in a narrow temperature range of 300–350 °C. After this sharp weight loss, there is a gradual but constant weight loss up to 800 °C.

300-350°C = 572-662°F

Which does two things:

• really makes me glad that I tend to vape around 30-40w or so (322-400 in TC judging from the real time readings the Topsides give if they’re remotely accurate)
• makes me really want to find the equivalent information for cotton!!

Again, I appreciate the input and discussion.

[Sprkslfly]

If anyone has access to this, please share any relevant information to the discussion here!

I tried clicking on the doi link, but it looped back to the page I took the screenshot of (above).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9781855734852500068?via%3Dihub

And the link in the above page:
https://doi.org/10.1533/9781855734852.9

[Sprkslfly]

After a little further digging… I found a preview of the book, that gives enough concrete information IMO to sufficiently answer questions I’ve had about the whole “is rayon real (natural), or synthetic (man-made)?” question that’s been eating at me few I first read about it the use of it for wicking here years ago.

The link (for those who want to read further) is: Handbook of Textile Fibres: Man-Made Fibres - J Gordon Cook - Google Boeken

The key passage for me is in the following:

@J. Gordon Cook

Classifications of Man-made Fibres

---

Man-made fibres fall naturally into two broad groups, depending on the origin of the fibre-forming materials from which they are produced.

Man-made fibres are considered under two main headings:
A. NATURAL POLYMER FIBRES (in which the fibre-forming material is of natural origin.)
B. SYNTHETIC FIBRES (in which the fibre-forming material is made from simpler substances.)

Soooo!
I’ve learned that I wasn’t clear in my use of the term (as it applies here) synthetic (when I said synthetic polymer, earlier in the initial conversation). What I intended was to say by using synthetic was to say man-made.

To me (a layman) synthetic has always equated to “not natural” or man-made.

Although it is glaringly obvious (to me) that there was a need to distinguish source materials for the folks in the industry, or they wouldn’t have created such classifications. (Derp. lol)

What it also reveals (in my opinion) is how some marketing entities have seemingly once again taken the facts, and hand-picked key bullet points (keywords), and “redefined” the truth.

Yes, there’s cellulose.
Yes it contains “natural fibre” origins

But it’s still a FUCKING MAN-MADE PRODUCT. /frustration is at the lies. Not anyone in the thread (irony) here!

Other shots I snapped, but am too frustrated to explain further why I took them at the moment…

All material is copyrighted (I’m sure) and is only referenced for the purposes of this discussion.
All credits due are to the author: J. Gordon Cook.

[tejas1]

Don’t get hung up on the word “polymer”. We usually associate polymer with plastics, but carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids are polymers.
Depolymerization is the process or act of breaking down a polymer into its monomeric components. An example of a biological depolymerization is the digestion of food.

[warkwarth]

Does that mean you will try rayon?

Yea it is man made but it’s a natural plant fibre

How I look at i guess is that cotton goes through processing like scouring and degumming which takes waxes and impurities out of the cotton

Making rayon takes everything else out like proteins so only the cellulose remains

[Tracy8]

I don’t know about all the technical gobbledegook that had transpired here. All I do know is that I have used rayon (a box from Sally’s Beauty Supply, $11.00) for five years. Still have a f-ton of it left. I have used it in rdtas, rtas and rdas. Why, is when I first started making my own coils, I couldn’t stand the taste of breaking in the cotton. Why I still use it is because it’s what I know and it works for me. The only dry hit I ever get is when I’m chain vaping and forget to squonk. Although, I still haven’t figured out the Profile rda or rta yet. Use what works for you. No one else’s opinion matters.

[Sprkslfly]

@tejas1

We usually associate polymer with plastics, but carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids are polymers.

Ahh, did not know that!
Thank you for chiming in after the years lurking (glad you still do).
Appreciate your input!

[Sprkslfly]

@warkwarth

Does that mean you will try rayon?

After confirming that it’s totally ‘synthetic’ (man-made) chuckles, no.
I recall the dry hits from silica all too well, and if they are worse than that, I want no part of it. lol

@warkwarth

it is man made, but it’s a natural plant fibre

It may have started off as a natural plant fibre, but the instant they turned it into a liquid…

@J. Gordon Cook

Spinning

The first stage of fibre-production is carried out by rendering the mass of fiber-forming material into a liquid and or semi-liquid state. This can be done either by dissolving the material in a solvent, or by heating it until it melts.

In either of the cases above, IMO, there’s no longer anything natural about it. It’s been manipulated beyond the point of being able to think of it as natural.

@warkwarth

How I look at i guess is that cotton goes through processing like scouring and degumming which takes waxes and impurities out of the cotton

I can understand that.

I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, the cotton for what we use, has only been “washed” (in my mind’s eye). Yes, it could be bleached, or whatever else they do to clean it. But, as far as I know, it’s never reached a state of “decomposition” (like what rayon has), and then “rematerialized” through artificial means.

It’s strange, I realize, but this is one of those personal things. It’s really small in relation to the big picture. And damned near anything in vaping is far and away better than the damage being done by smoking (barring using flavors that contain oils, etc).

But in the few things that we actually have control over (well, those of us who build and wick our own lol), I just feel more at ease “accidentally breathing in slightly singed cotton”, than I do “accidentally breathing in slightly singed artificial material”.

[warkwarth]

totally understand I feel the same way about inhaling singed cotton vs rayon since our wicks should always be wet It shouldn’t really happen

The fact that it changes states to a liquid before it is made into rayon dosen’t bother me so much, we can change nicotine to a powder or liquid or gas and it’s still nicotine

For me i’m more worried about the by-products from vaping camareliZed gunk (acrolein, formaldehyde etc)

Some flavours like watermelon would stick around for a full 5ML tank or longer with cotton but that never happens with rayon

The way I can switch between 8 different flavours and have no previous flavour within a few vapes hints that juice isn’t getting stuck in the wick and cooking or camareliZing

The wicks always look cleaner and much less dark
My anecdotal opinion anyways

And yes a thousands if not millions of times less harmful than cigarettes
just look at how much radiation we are not getting anymore

[d_fabes]

I’ve been avoiding replying in this thread, but what the hell, it’s my birthday (66), and I’m feelin’ a little frisky today. The cotton / rayon discussions are always good ones.

For the record, I switched from cotton to rayon about 4 years ago. The natural vs man made debate is something I’ve always found to be odd.

VG - man made
PG - man made
Nic - man made extraction process
Flavors - man made
Coils - man made alloys
Tanks - man made alloys, glass, plastics

Virtually everything we ingest, vaping is man made.

I just don’t get it.

But like everything else in vaping, the outcome is a series of personal tastes & choices. That part is easy to get.

[Gus6]

Congratulations @d_fabes , enjoy this day with yours.

[Sprkslfly]

Ya know what?
You make some great points @d_fabes!!

Thank you for adding to the conversation!

My only thought is, those things we expect to go up in vapor. Well, barring the coil of course lol…

Rayon? Something that is expected to not be burned and inhaled. (Granted, that would always be unintentional.)

[Sprkslfly]

And pardon my manners…
A VERY Happy Birthday to you!!

[SessionDrummer]

@Sprkslfly

Ya know what?
You make some great points @d_fabes!!

I was just going to say that.

[d_fabes]

Thanks, and totally agree about not wanting to inhale burned rayon or cotton!

I’ve only had one dry hit, early on, in my 5+ years of vaping. It was with cotton. It was an idiot attack of galactic proportions. I can’t blame it on the cotton.

With rayon, I get the slightest hint, taste-wise, that the wick on the verge of needing juice. I haven’t had a dry hit with rayon (knock on wood) but I can’t imagine it would be worse than that cotton dry hit flame thrower that nailed me once.

[Sprkslfly]

@d_fabes

I haven’t had a dry hit with rayon (knock on wood) but I can’t imagine it would be worse than that cotton dry hit flame thrower that nailed me once.

Ever had a dry hit with silica?
Back to the old Ego pen days…
(Silica is definitely worse than cotton! lol)

[mayk]

@Sprkslfly

And pardon my manners…
A VERY Happy Birthday to you!!

I’ll see you and raise you… Mesh wicks dryhit.