No idea. Think most use a pg/vg blend and don’t notice the flavor drop? Other than the RF vanilla custard, I don’t use RF anymore but don’t want to give it away either
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I mean its awesome that people recommend gear and percentage, but and that’s no offense, he shouldn’t have to get different mods/atties/DL/mtl setups/changes just to taste a flavor?
I don’t use RF so I can’t say nothing about that, but yes in general and in my humbled opinion, even the slightest amount of pg is different than full VG juices.
Now since he can’t or doesn’t want pg, max VG juices, again in my opinion do need higher percentages. Not sure about rf tho, and they do steep forever.
Now I’m already not a fan of snv because it doesn’t work for me, great if it does for others, but I couldn’t imaging max VG too be snv. I’m probably wrong as usual, but max VG with VG nic and VG flavors, I wouldn’t doubt a 1-3 month steep as others mentioned.
Good luck man, hope you can get it too work somehow.
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true, but if you’re switching from vaping PG-based juices to 100VG (as he has) then you might need to change your kit,
Personally, I avoid making hardware recommends , cos hundreds of otheras round here are much better qualified. But then, as one of the very few PG-free MTL vapers round here, I figured it would be mean of me not to mention what works for me, in terms of kit !
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In ordinary situations, I’d say that’s good advice.
Unfortunately, in this case, and with the OP’s particular problems (having already stated that they’ve tried extremely high values of DW [>5%], and also having issues with over 3% PG…), I am of the opinion that no less than the raw (pure) MF extracts (undiluted) have a chance of working.
Simply because, as you just noted Botanic Elixirs is diluted. In what? And how much? I don’t know. But to maximize the chances of success, it seems to me (like woftam, netweight, and others have implied)… He/she needs the most potent flavors that he/she can lay hands on.
@anon478949
To my bit of experience, the two lead horses out of the gate are MF (price be damned, this is the ideal reason where necessity dictates a try for purely physical reasons IMO), and FLV.
Nice secondary considerations (again, IMO) would be Inawera (almost always under 3% required) and NF (again, already mentioned). Another potential brand that I’ve had only limited experience with, but is so far leaning towards really low percentages, is Hangsen.
Being an MTL user, and still experiencing PG issues royally SUCKS. I feel for you.
More importantly, I hope that you continue to persevere, at least long enough to get past the point of tobacco dependency. As that’s the main concern!
I hope that you are able to find your niche.
We’re rooting for you!
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Quite a few of us have. And those thoughts have been repeatedly posted in varying threads.
It’s just not leaderboard (subject/headline) worthy for most.
There’s also quite a few folks who actually enjoy them. /shrugs
Just another of the prime candidates for YMMV. 
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10% dilution in VG. Sorry, I should prolly have linked to my thread about 'em but was feeling lazy.
A few people have found them less potent, but usually if you just multiply the usual pure MF % by ten, they work just fine, in my experience, Just don’t go for those rare flavours that need about 2% pure MF (Green Apple!)
I’m thinking the guy surely isn’t gonna be in the mood to invest in excess of £20 per flavour for the pure stuff. (much though I wish people would! ) .
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I get that (again, from a “normal” standpoint), but this is a rare exception where physical needs outweigh price issues.
Even when considering the initial outlay, he/she will still be coming in far cheaper (per unit) than what they’d spend on smoking/tobacco. But, more importantly, they’d be potentially meeting the physical needs/requirements, which is the sole/primary goal as I understand it.
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Oh! absolutely! but will he have the faith to try it, at that cost, after so much disappointment with RF? plus the patience to wait for it to steep? (though, frankly the BE dilutions don’t cut down on steep times 
, so no advantage there)
Well, only maxvapee can answer that, but At least we’ve managed to suggest a range of options between us , which I daresay is better than just one option. 
Anyways, the reason why I’m throwing in yet another repkly, is that it just srtuck me he can vape unflavoured juice for a while, until he finds something that works… though he’s prolly thought of that for himself, and is prolly resorting to that already.
Anyway, I’ve done that myself at times, and found it surprisingly pleasant, if a little bit boring. It’s much better than weakly flavoured juice at any rate. That’s just too tantalising.
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It would be nice if that was true, we could all just buy the FLAVOR setup, or the CLOUD setup. I’ve done countless comparisons to my Steam Craves, and most fall short. I’ve tried highly rated setups, and most just don’t taste as good as my SC’s, but that’s me. I don’t think my lowly, old, Steam Crave v.1 is a state of the art, cutting edge unit at all, but damn, it just tastes good, so that’s what I personally choose for all my critical testing. I use other SC’s for my daily drivers, basically taste the same, with air flow and juice flow, with bigger tanks.
You shouldn’t have to buy ONE setup just to taste a flavor, but if flavor’s what you’re after, then choosing things that excel at flavor is never a bad idea. I remember when my (older) OBS Engine came out, many raved about it, I got one, set it up exactly the same as my SC v.1 and did a side by side, and it was NO comparison. Everyone tastes different. If he DOES have a setup that tastes good to him, and he still can’t find a sweet spot for the RF SC’s, then maybe they’re not for him. My .02.
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I agree with you, and this was exactly why I asked above. His setup seems to work fine, but apparently to be able to taste RF , you need a different setup, which was strange for me lol. Must be magical
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I’m thinking of my own setups as I run two different. I have a high NIC, high PG MTL that I run sometimes, vs. my low NIC, high VG regular setup DL. The flavor I get in my MTL pales in comparison to the DL sub ohm setup. I only use the MTL as a leak proof, small carry around piece so I deal with the lacking flavor for the convenience. I wonder it he’s having the same experience. I realize there are better MTL’s for flavor, but just thinking. I’ve never vaped any complex, creamy/bakery flavors in my MTL setup, mostly fruits.
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Haven’t read the thread, yet, but I am in the same position as you. I have used up to 5% RF SC Pineapple before I was satisfied. IDK if it is an American palate thing or what as I have not smoked for 3+ years.
For reference, I generally vape hot at 5.5 volts on claptons, kanthal or stainless steel with a resistance of 0.4 to 0.5.
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I’m another one guilty of not saying anything about RFSC because I didn’t really want to say anything negative really, so I just kept quiet, but also was disappointed with their flavors.
I will admit I bought into the hype, and I certainly can appreciate Walt being here on these forums so I don’t want to talk negative about him or his company. Thats what I loved about them, so when he had a 3 bottle giveaway a long time ago I placed an order for several flavors along with the freebies. I really wanted to support him.
Unfortunately, shipping took forever, he forgot my dropper tops, so I had to order them, but I still wanted to love the flavors. That’s the whole point! lol
As soon as I got the flavors I did a SNV at the recommended % and nothing, no flavor. So I let it steep a few weeks, and a little better but not much flavor there either. I thought the %'s are misleading, so I did a second round of tests at double the % on the bottle. I let it steep for exactly 4 weeks without touching it and I got the intended flavor, but even then it was just…meh at best.
I plan on mixing w some of them in the near future, but I won’t be a repeat customer
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I tried RF deep fried Twinkie at 3% along with some creams, vanillas and a yellow cake I think it was. Made the mix and let it steep every bit of 30-40 days…mainly because I forgot about it. Even though the cake, creams and vanilla were just in there to support the Twinkie, I honestly could not taste it and could only taste the support. So that was a big bummer for me. Spent all that time creating the mix, tweaked it like we do on paper, made it for real then after trying it was nothing to write home over. I agree with you in the respect for Walt and his company but the flavors might just be best used in cooking instead of a high VG e liquid. I’m sure they have their place in life. However, for the majority of them, I’m not sure where that is except on the shelf.
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This is my opinion and it will probably piss people off but these sc flavors are crap. I jumped on the band wagon and bought 30 1 oz bottles from the manufacturer. These flavors are made with pdo and they mute out with a steep and mute out even as i vape them, when mixed with other companies the mix is muted unless increased amounts of flavoring are used to compensate, the flavor profiles are good but these flavors are not worth the hassle. These flavors are useful as an addition to my trash can, but they sit in my refrigerator pissing me off and i cant bring myself to throw them out !
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Dunno why you’re sincerely held opinion should piss people off? It’s all grist to the mill. IMO.
Yep, a good few people have noted flavour mutiing issues with some of these flavours, including self . I think this is the first time I’ve heard that ascribed to PDO though, or expressed in such extreme terms. IIRC , Walt said that PDO is only in a very few of the flavours. Personally I’m wondering about EM? That would seem to be the usual suspect for flavour muting in other brands.
Tha\t’s yet another reason for preferring MF, by the way. No muting! Those flavours just get stonger and stonger with time, usually. But you don’t get your biscuits and custard with MF, just fruit and nuts mostly (and an awesome butterscotch! and a legendary chocolate! Oh! and a legendary vanilla too …)
I’d suggest NF, as others have done, for the wider range of flavours, except I know from experience how difficult and expensive it is to import NF into Europe. I _stil_l haven’t found an option that doesn’t put them on a par with MF costwise (once you add on shipping) which is pretty damned annoying when Americans can pick NF up from DIYVS for what? a couple of dollars a throw. So, personally, I’m still waiting for that place to offer international shipping.
Flavour muting doesn’t seem to the problem here, though. OP just isn’t finding much flavour in the first place
Again, I say, it’s always best to check the out the individual flavour notes. RFSC are a mixed bag (aren’t they all? ) so it can be helpful to check out which 0nes have been met with widespread enthusiasm , and what % and steep time the enthusiasts used. Some people also mention muting, and at what point in time they found the muting kicking in to a significant degree.
But one word of warning to the OP: RF have recently brought out a new range of PG based concentrates. so a little bit of care is needed when ordering, not to order from the wrong RF range.
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oh! @anon478949 , have you not entered those flavours in your stash? It would be easier to share them with us, if you did, and easier for you to check the associated flavour notes on the recipe side.
Just in case you don’t know how to do this (sorry, if I’m" teaching my grandmother to suck eggs") you just go to the “resourse page” (you can find the ink top right) , select the “user” menu (again top right) , select “my flavour stash” from the drop down menu, and it’s pretty much plain sailing from there. Just try to use the same syntax as other users .
Here’s my flavour stash . It has very little in common with yours, by the looks of it, but every item on it is PG-free, to the best of my knowlege, so you might just find it useful
The “Buttery Butter” is from Flavour Hub’s Kandi Hed range, btw and it’s a really good one, IMO. Unfortunately the syntax for that range is almost completely messed up by previous users. I decided it was better to omit the (KH) as others had done rather than cut my own entry off from the rest by being the only one to use the proper syntax. Fortunately, the MF and RF categories are much better behaved syntactically.
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Actually i feel the same way unfortunately :(. So he’s not the only one saying that
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IYO, could this replace FA’s Butter when it disappears from US shelves?
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Sorry, can’t make a comparison! I seized on the KH butter because it was the only PG-free butter I could get here in Britain, (not even RF does a butter flavour 
) so it was a case of beggars can;t be choosers. That said, I was pleasantly surprised by how good it was, and ceased to care about what i might be missing. so I expect that it compares pretty well with the competition . You know. you don’t need try the alternatives to grasp that you’re vaping a piece of crap? 
How come FA’s butter is disappearing from the shelves? First I heard of that! But then, I don’t follow FA, for obvious reasons.
I’ve heard good reports of NF butter, IIRC, so there’s another potential alternative for you. It’s even PG-free 
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