@Beaufort_Batches I’m seeing Walnut (FA) in your recipes. That sounds like a great layerer …adding to list
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Since the headline is including layering flavors i thought this might be something to look at.
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I’ve been researching and dabbling with layering and have a question that may seem odd, but it comes from my cooking background…
When layering flavors in a sauce, you start with one component, then another, and another, in a fairly specific order.
Bear with me here 
Take a bechemel; butter and flour first to make a roux, then layer in the milk or cream, then salt and pepper… Take that to the next step and slowly add in some cheese to get a Mornay sauce.
You can’t just throw all of those ingredients in and expect them to work it out on their own. But it seems that you can with e-liquid recipes. So, my question is:
Is there any concept that mirrors this when you add your layers to your mix? I was thinking about this cheesecake I’m about to make, and might it be clever to put in the crust layer flavors in, give a good long swirl, then the pie filling flavors, swirl it up, fruit layer, swirl that up, and then the whipped cream?
I was also thinking of fine-tuning and tweaking each layer on their own (I just learned about this concept recently), and once they all sing, make a one-shot concentrate of each and add them in whenever I want to whip up a batch… I’d have a ready-made pie crust, a banana cream whipped topping, a fruit combo, etc, that I could use for other ideas.
Sorry so long-winded! I’m really just trying to form these thoughts and thought I’d ask what you all thought about the thoughts while I was at it. Thanks!
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This has been tossed around before (buried in other threads I can’t recall though)… But the gist of it was if you combine all the ingredients at the same time (in the same bottle) they’re going to homogenize into the VG at the same rate.
The general consensus was, if you really want to play with the idea you’ve referenced above, then do so in separate bottles (one for crust, then one for filling, then topping, etc), and possibly expand further on that with different steep rates (and coordinate those ‘sub-mixes’ accordingly).
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EG:
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Your filling takes the longest (assume a Custard) so 4 weeks for that.
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Your cream topping takes 3 weeks to hit potential, so start that at the beginning of week 2…
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Your pie crust only takes a week to come together, so start that at the beginning of week 4.
When the month has passed, mix the needed amounts of each together into it’s own bottle, and shake like hell. Then vape!!
the idea was so that you’d receive little “flavor busts” with different accents being highlighted in each pull.
Haven’t heard much back on it all, but the theory seems quite sound in my opinion!
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I was thinking it might go like that, just didn’t get as far as the steep time deal. Thanks! Maybe someone who has tried this will chime in, possibly/probably not, but I’ll leave it there for now. I’m still in the early days of figuring out basic mixing, so maybe next year!
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@Sprkslfly this was the topic you were probably thinging about. It really stuck in my mind. I tinker with recipes by adding different steeped jucies together or make adds to a steeped juice. The results can be misleading as in the above bechemel sauce analogy. Example: you add another Strawberry to a steeped Unicorn Milk and it’s awesome, so you make a v2 …the result is not consistent. My theory is that steeping is a more complex reaction. If you do it in multiple parts you can get different results because the reaction is not duplicated when it’s all mixed at once. This snowcone/sweetener topic has stuck with me…and i wonder if there are Commercial e-juice manufacturers who mix juice like Taco B3ll makes menu items 
(using steeped bases)
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Apologies for the derail of a KEY topic from the original poster @HocusKrokus, so let’s get it back on track. Still my point could be an aspect of commercial e-juice manufacture where mixing separate “layered” (and steeped!) Bases could result in an uncrackable (cannot be easily cloned) recipe. Good luck reverse engineering if that was a successful clone-proofing strategy.
Meanwhile all us DIY folks need to gain experience “Layering” if we hope to impress with that next 5-star recipe, so thanks to @Norseman for bringing in that on topic DIYorDie video …and of course thanks to @Wayne_Walker who’s sharing on YouTube birthed many of us into our own DIY Journey here on ELR.
Obviously moving from Square One as a new mixer, where you just make other people’s recipes, learning about how flavors “pair” and layer is the next step. Not to minimize SquareOne, as this is where New Mixers should be paying closest attention. So as we talk about Layering, we should point out what one should look for while experiencing a new (and properly steeped!) e-juice. Also lots to learn on how juices change over those couple days/weeks/month of steep time where the perception of layers often change.
I mean when you’re attempting to understand Layering, in the end the discussion really gets at the ability to describe/communicate/capture layering. Wayne does a great job here and so do top reviewers of recipes and finished e-juices. Is there some vocabulary that could help Mixers wrap their mind around simply describing what’s going on in their own experience? So (getting back on track) what kind of words are meaningful when describing Layers? Obvious ones might be…
“Pop” adding a flavor that boosts another more detectable Primary flavor
"on the inhale" the first flavor detected
"on the exhale" the flavor you taste as you exhale
Layering is about when and where and how you taste the ingredients in your mix, and then doing it independently and on purpose in your own next recipe, but the ability to clearly communicate can become important to the successful sharing …or reviewing. Translation: Building layers is everything, but learning how to clearly talk about it first comes from seeking a clarity on how you define your own experience and perhaps be better able to take meaningful notes …even if you never shared.
heh back on track… how would you best describe a singular layer in your favorite juice? I’ll take the easy one the strawberry jam center of @SthrnMixer’s Queen’s Cookie Jar where Pear (FA) and
Strawberry Shisha (INAWERA) pair perfectly to delivered that cooked candy SB Jam on the inhale. Hmm, seen some good examples of this in the ELR Flavor “Notes” also. Any examples you can think of there to give credit where due?
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Nicely put.
I think a good place to “describe” the layers, is in the note section of your recipe. Hopefully I understand the last paragraph, so I’ll do one.
Untamed Melon’s : http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/1569873/Untamed+Melon%27s
1.5% Cream (Flavorah)
1% Milk and Honey (Flavorah)
0.75% Sweet Coconut (Flavorah)
2.25% Wild Melon (Flavorah)
Flavor total: 5.5%
Remember to rate it at: http://tjek.nu/r/cyXr
This is a delicious recipe. It has become an all day vape. The way the wild melon and sweet coconut come together in a different but tasty way. You get the melon… but wait, what just happened? It’s the sweet coconut. It mingles with the melon in such a way that it makes a whole new flavor. The milk and honey adds intensity, while the cream smooths the whole thing out. It’s good, really good. I can’t stop vaping it. the best thing about this recipe is that you can literally shake and vape.
I hope that is what you were looking for
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Here is another example. I really like the way @altneurose describes his layers
Dusk : http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/440124/Dusk
0.5% Acetyl Pyrazine 5% (TPA)
1.5% Banana Cream (TPA)
2% Bavarian Cream (TPA)
4% Graham Cracker (Clear) (TPA)
1% Hazelnut (FW)
3% Marshmallow (FA)
1% Peanut Butter (TPA)
1% Sugar Cookie (CAP)
0.5% Toasted Almond (TPA)
Flavor total: 14.5%
Remember to rate it at: http://tjek.nu/r/3x2t
Inspired by Milk & Honey Clones, a creamy, rich nut vape.
Peanut Butter, Hazelnut, Toasted Almond, AP and Graham Cracker (clear) build the main nutty notes. This blend is very tasty, and “hides” some bad qualities that the flavors normally have. For example TFA Peanut butter always rapes my throat in a way that feels like I’m coming down with a cold, and TFA Toasted Almond is a weird and sort of bitter flavor by itself. Not in this blend! FW Hazelnut is so sweet and tasty you could probably sub every nut (and the AP) here to 3% Hazelnut. AP and graham cracker increase background grahamy toastiness in between the nuts and the creams.
Bavarian Cream, Banana Cream and Marshmallow make a rich, sweet combo which fits well with deez nuts (sic). The banana is not among the main notes but just noticeable and boosts the overall sweetness, not in a sickly way but in a… banana’y way. FA Marshmallow is a flavor I just can’t put down. I seriously have trouble not adding it to everything. It’s a great “cream”, very sweet, not heavy nor light, and while it has a very slight hint of cinnamon, the cinnamon isn’t apparent in this mix, at all.
Sub Bavarian cream to Vanilla Swirl, and you’ve got a less heavy base, and also less Ethyl Maltol (Bavarian Cream has 10% or more EM in it), letting the nuts shine a bit brighter through.
And Sugar Cookie just because Sugar Cookie.
A few days and it’s very vapable, a week and it’s good, two weeks and it’s golden.
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Yeah @Dan_the_Man thanks for that recipe too …snagged. That’s right up my flavor profile. Interesting notes. The idea is that deeper inderstanding of what you yourself experience and gaining the ability to then also share in a way others can understand is some pretty powerful DIY stuff …way over just putting a recipe up. Wayne really covers all the bases in that video and the subsequent related videos on “Layering” on YouTube. Gives you something to strive for here on the Forum and on the ELR Home side (Recipes/Notes).
There is so much information hidden in the threads on this Forum that speaks to Layers …how you got recipeX to work etc? All hidden clues in the deconstruction game when trying to clone something. I always grab these in my local notes when I casually come across because they are needles-in-haystacks when trying to find on purpose.
Many i get from contributors in “Notes” on individual flavors when they just go off-script and talk about some side-nugget of truth they uncovered while Single Flavor testing FlavX or using it in the subsequent recipe. Our top Mixers have left GREAT Notes and there are new folks coming onboard with some real ideas using their own framework for contributing to the Single Flavor Notes (@Leilani). Should layering be a thing in single flavor Notes?
So a better description and maybe some inner workings in the Notes on your own Public recipes, and maybe while putting down Notes for Single Flavors maybe stray a little and share how this flavor plays with others, or is the Top Note, the middle or the finish …from your experience.
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Thanks for the shout out @BoDarc.
I’m trying my best to describe what I’m tasting as I taste it. I try to keep my notes as simple as possible so that when I go back to my notes when creating a new recipe I can zoom in on key adjectives that’ll help me add layers.
I think layering in single flavor notes is helpful if you have a specific goal in mind for that flavor (like boosting* it, in case it’s weak in one area), however I don’t think it’s necessary.
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I’m still new to recipe building and single flavor testing, so I rely heavily on notes from other members as well. I cross reference what I taste vs what others people pick up on as far as notes/accents that I may not. It’s very useful when I build my recipe(s) - which is taking a loooong time (mostly because of single flavor testing).
As a noob to building a recipe/ layering I still rely on Google Docs where I place all my notes and list of flavors to help me stay on track. This is so I make sure I stay on course on what I want the flavors & layers to be.
Example: Don’t laugh at me!
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@Leilani You do you Boo. The strength and weakness of the ELR Notes is non-consistency, although I must admit I gravitate to folk’s Notes I know to be knowledgeable …and consistent. Maybe that “inconsistency” is how we get there. Getting it altogether in one place is some Flavor Bible stuff and this framework looks like a 3D bullseye.
Not sure if I’m pitching something that’s above the original concept/goal of Flavor Notes on ELR Flavor Search, but it sure would be ambitious to have something like this. Search “Flavor Bible” on the Forum for this previous discussion. Being able to minimize overall size, while delivering data that can be quickly absorbed, a smart start, so Kudos from me.
I would think any Flavor Bible would include singular “layered” descriptions as above and possible recommended pairings and how those additional flavors either boost or subdue …such as moving BlueberryX from a Support/Accent note to a Top.
Ha! Now only 999,999 more to go 
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That is pretty good. You did that on Google Docs? I should learn how to do something like that.
Thank you 
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I constructed the majority of it Google Docs. I made the “Recipe Pyramid” as an editable Photoshop document and saved the file as a .JPEG to import into Google Docs. It’s pretty easy to learn Google Docs; it’s interface is very similar to Microsoft Word. One of the pluses with Google Docs is that it’s housed on the cloud; you can always have it on hand and edit as you work.
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I need to bite the bullet and put my notes (they are on paper) into the single flavor notes. It seems like a monumental task and I am a procrastinator of the highest sort. If I had done it like @Leilani I could have transferred them much easier.
this might be a little off topic, but I have noticed a particular name (Minty Mods) in the note section for flavors. This name does not exist as a mixer on ELR. I think someone pastes his notes from reddit.
Also, some of the notes are so far off base it’s crazy. Then there are some that say the opposite of the notes above it, and I hardly ever see someone I recognize.
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right on! I need to do it that way. The pyramid is a nice touch.
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Don’t get rid of your paper notes! Those are valuable back ups just in case the internet implodes on itself and your hard drive goes KAPOOT! If you have your single flavor notes in your “Flavor Stash” on ELR you can just save them as .PDF and export them to a storage device for safe keeping.
MysticRose had an issue with deleting certain flavors but wanting to save notes. Here is a link where I have directions to saving your flavor notes from ELR if you are interested.
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yes, that will come in handy, thank you.
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No laughing here @Leilani, I don’t come close to being a layering expert, I need all the help I can get. Good stuff.
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