Hello all! I was looking for an option to send a message to Lars directly as I thought I had done in the past but I suppose this is it!
I was wondering if we have anything in the works for support for PDO as a base. I just received PDO to try in my mixes, and for the time being I’m going to have to settle for: 100%-(total flavour %)-(desired VG%) = max PDO% possible - adding to formula as ‘water/alcohol %’, and then converting that mL total into g (PDO is 1.06g/cm³).
I know it may be a headache, but I would happily suggest features for it if it’s in the brain lab already!
-an option for ‘max PDO given VG% and overall flavour%’ for example.
Thank you for reading and I suppose this would be the place to chime in if you can think of another option!
@Brucer Allow me to get the ball rolling on what is a NEW topic. I have a little experience with PDO (VaporBase) and just bought a liter of PDO for my new plans. There have been one-on-one discussions re: PDO but it’s all untested waters except for a select few. I’m kinda on my own, so never take my advice
The concept is that PDO is really chemically the same as PG, however the molecule is rotated so it behaves differently while steeping (carries flavors differently than PG) and while vaping. Anecdotal stories infer that some folks who are allergic to PG (have some personal adverse reaction) don’t have the same reaction to PDO (vaping).
Also PG comes from Petroleum and PDO is made from Corn …for me that 99.9% purity (USP PDO) means that mysterious 0.1% is not from petroleum distillation.
The interesting part comes from being able to increase your VG/PG ratio and vape more PDO than you could PG (not the same throat hit either). You could then possibly get more flavor (but less clouds) and your final mix would be thinner.
You will have to search more to find any official percentages or recommendations for ratios of VG to PDO and products like VaporBase keep that as a Trade secret …although I did buy a liter of PDO from LiquidLabs today on their 30% off sale (see “Good Deals” thread). I have heard people mixing at 50/50 VG/PDO and having great results flavor-wise, so I too plan on doing my own investigation.
@Brucer In terms of using the ELR Recipe calculator it would be a simple substitution. You could start right away by simply using the PG% for PDO. It is clear how that could get quickly out of hand, as any published (made Public) recipes would show your recipe as 50% PG (example) when you really wanted it to display correctly as PDO. We are also getting flavorings in PDO, with likely more in the future, so there’s accounting for those percentages also.
I’m no programmer, but allowing the PG% in the Calc to display as PG or PDO (dropdown?) should solve the problem. Then anyone trying to make your recipe as intended will clearly understand you are using a ratio of VG/PDO. Don’t know too many people mixing with 3 diluents, it more of a substitution of PG with PDO. Who knows, that could change too
Well PG and PDO would have to be calculated as the same, but any recipe publisher wants it to say “PDO” in print. If there was some future where we mixed VG/PDO/PG (more than was in flavorings) then it would have be an additional checkbox (not just a dropdown), so it may be smart to do that up front. Especially if you started making bases (based on PDO which is an idea to speed steeping)
Hey! Thanks for the feedback everyone. I like the discussion.
I would use it as fidalgo has suggested, as a max replacement for PG in the recipe considering that most of my flavours are PG based. I’ve seen some peoples trials with it and a popular chain of thought is the same. Instead of adding PG to the mix you add the PDO.
I mixed two recipes tonight with the PDO and all that was necessary was take the PG volume I needed to add for the 70VG/30PG ratio (less the PG from flavour) and multiplied by 1.06 for the weight of it.
I bought 500ml of the stuff and this is just the first trial!
Edit: BoDarc hits it on the head too… Just maybe mention it in the notes of your published recipe that instead of adding x ml of PG you used PDO.
In regard to the 99.9% purity concern, I imagine it’s from the microorganisms used to ferment the PDO which are then neutralized and removed. I’m not worried about the 0.1, it’s food grade at that purity, and most VG is 99.9% as well.
Edit 2: if anyone wants some reading material you can look into:
Scott RS, Frame SR, Ross PE, Loveless SE, Kennedy GL (2005). “Inhalation toxicity of 1,3-propanediol in the rat”. Inhal Toxicol. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/08958370590964485
Oooh goodness I read it as criticism toward manufacturing of the PDO. I’m tired!
You’re not wrong about the rat bit. It’s an old study but certainly noteworthy. I imagine there is an angle for fear mongering from a certain crowd with regard to the microorganism used for one method of manufacturing PDO (see: E coli… Lol) . If PDO really takes off I hope we see more unbiased studies done on the subject - in the mean time I’d happily settle for more studies of vg/pg/diluted flavours!
Artificial flavors has been an interest of mine for a long time. The strongest is “Green Bell Pepper” and reportedly one drop can flavor an entire swimming pool to taste like a green pepper. Recipes like cola syrup start with a gallon jug of the pure extracts (no sugar) which costs thousands of dollars and makes like 100,000 cans of soda …translation; I’d say mostly PG simply to dilute the pure extract to a usable concentration.
so if your flavoring total is close to 20pct the pg is also going to be close , this is why im guessing while using PDO along with pg based flavors a person would need to have that calculated into the equation
Yeah. Let’s say you make 100ml juice and you want 70% VG. If you use 15% flavour (PG based), that means a calculator like ELR would then say you need 15ml of additional PG added to the recipe.
What I did last night was add PDO instead of that extra PG. It is heavier than PG however, so if you mix by weight you need to convert ml to g you multiply ml by 1.06 (15.9g PDO in this case).
Until flavours become more available in PDO base, you’re handcuffed by the %VG you want as well as the overall flavour % you’re using.
That said, RF have a small line of PDO flavours they’re selling now!
Edit: forgot to consider that if you buy flavours with VG base (again, RF as far as I know), you COULD get away without adding any PG to the recipe. I think you’d want to toy with the overall VG% however, as PDO is slightly thicker than PG.