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Njord RDA - Morten Oen & Atom Vapes Masterpiece?


#21

Maybe Grimm is onto something :wink:


#22

My assumption is that Morten created a cyclonic separator. Wikipedia: Cyclonic separation. While airflow might be optimal for cooling the coil, the sharp turns the air has to take, also forces the heavier flavor particles outwards, literally smashing them against the posts and the inner wall of the RDA.

I wrote him about this theory and he thought, that this could indeed be the case. That’s why he mentioned the Air Blades, which will act as “breaks” and slow down the air.

I’m not sure, if the Air Blades will catch too much flavor particle themselves by doing so. Well GrimmGreens observation of more flavor with loser draws backs up this theory.

Morten has made some interesting observations in his AF chamber. But as it seems, he does not know enough, to explain all the factors involved, when it comes to flavor. Otherwise his responds would have made him look better. It looks like he at least nailed the cooling part.


#23

When you look at the overall product, as is (without the air blades), it just comes with too many instructions (read: restrictions) with regards to the type of coil that needs to be used, what the ID should be, how you should suck the air through it, …
It may very well give a good vaping experience, I won’t deny that, but for me, there’s just too much to be perfect before you even get a satisfying vape out of it, let alone one with a WoW effect (which everybody kind of expected from Oen).
If Oen thinks he’s going to re-educate vapers to make his own RDAs work, while those people have no issues with all the other great RDAs on the market, I think he’s so wrong.


#24

You’re right. I see the Njørd more as a proof of concept for his airflow theory than a perfectly designed RDA. Morten has done a lot of fundamental and basic research on airflow, that doesn’t make him a good product designer or engineer, when it comes to developing an RDA. One problem lies in the high expectations a lot of people (including myself) have put into his creation for just being based on optimal airflow (neglecting other flavor impacting aspects), the other problem lies in the way Atom Vapes has produced (coating, thin walls, etc.), distributed and communicated the Njørd and its “Beta” stage, etc.

All in all I think this is a huge PR disaster with nobody really getting something positiv out of it.


#25

The big problem I have with this guy, is that he portrays himself as a scientists. I am convinced he is truly interested and fascinated by the science behind vaping and airflow…
But the fact is, he’s a poet, an author, a photographer. He’s an artist and didn’t enjoy a proper scientific education. His research is more artistic than scientific and he’s not taking any criticism from people with actual knowledge in the field.
If he carries on this way, I don’t see him improving and correcting mistakes.

From an artistic perspective, I think he can have a great future with what he does and I think he should focus more on that than designing RDAs. That is definitely still missing in this community. But he’s not scoring many goals in the R&D department IMO.


#26

I think we have a pretty similar perception of Morten.

He fails in many ways and you only mentioned a few. But I disagree that the reason for this is the lack of scientific education. You don’t have to be an educated scientist to do research. If you look at the history of vaping and how it evolved, you’ll find a lot of input from enthusiasts, who ran small scale businesses from their garage workshop along that way. Lots of right and wrong theories, lots of trial and error.

That air will go for the shortest path from hole to drip tip seems to be a wrong theory, that was in most heads for a long time. The Dead Rabbit for example would not work, if it was true.


#27

Agreed, but don’t go in against people with the knowledge if you can’t back it up. That’s what I meant with it.

The main stream of air will take the path of least resistance, the same as a water flow or electricity. This is not necessarily the shortest path.
But if you put a glass cover on an RDA and vape it, you’ll see that the whole RDA is filled with vapor immediately, it goes everywhere. So it’s all a little bit more complicated than what he shows in his videos. The computer simulations he sometimes uses, don’t always seem to be of reasonable quality either. Simple 2D simulations based on a drawing with a loose hand, it’s not exactly good representation :wink:

Most reviewers like MikeVapes, DJLSB, Heathen etc have had multiple versions before deciding on the best one to take to the final production line. Oen has definitely missed something in the process here…

Oh well, let’s hope for him those air blades will help so it won’t be a complete disaster for him. And I do hope he and Atom Vapes will use the best procedures to move on from this near disaster.


#28

What people, with what knowledge???
As far as I know Øen is the first person that has build an air chamber to investigate how airflow actually works inside an atomizer, and also the first to even try to explain it from a scientific point of view. Does that mean that he has the finale definite theory of everything vape related? Of course not, that is the nature of science, there isn’t a final definite answer to everything, only small answers that add to our total knowledge.

To me it seems like there is a lot of people that has some kind of grudge against Øen, perhaps because he dared to tell them that what they believed to be true was complete poppycock or old wives tales, and is using this as an opportunity to knock him down a peg or two.

Sorry if this comes of a bit condescending, but that is what it looks like to me.


#29

Yeh, I agree. Since everyone else is piling on, I will add my two cents. I sat through hours of engineering classes, not that I wanted to, but it was required to get a degree in high energy chemistry, which was my main interest,

Anyway, turbine steam output flows, fluid mechanics / heat transfer, all very well understood engineering approaches could be applied to RDAs and could analyze most of it. . The math is pretty complex, but in the old days we used readily available engineers tool boxes to work through them. Now there are computer programs that do the same thing in a very fast and painless way. -I watched a few of the Oen videos and never heard him mention any engineering formulas or related math. I was suspicious of that.

I think it might be useful to analyse his FAIL as a way to explore the question “just what is the mechanics of flavor transfer in vaporizers?” - I have been curious about this for a long while, and mention some of these issues in my discussions of centrifuge filtration of NET extractions.

As Thomas Edison once quipped, “I am making great progress on the light bulb, I now know ten thousand things that will not work” - The point, of course, is that understanding the ‘whys’ of the FAILs is very important to making progress to the final soulition

-:grin:


#30

Since we are doing two cents.

Yup I’m disappointed. Put a out, then have the company say it wasn’t a final version and now will have fins is just odd as all get out of dodge.

Then add in the drama and his own review saying the flavor is good and crisp. Hmmm. Ok cool vape. Sure.

My only guess is that either short cuts were taken or that he is a super taster that can taste strawberry flora and a :honeybee:’s butt and wasn’t a design for the market.


#31

Agree per your final assessment however I’m not going to get into a pissing contest over the need for any specific education. From what I have seen, it all looks like a lot of shotgun engineering. Throwing spit wads at a black board to see what sticks. There also seems to be a strong belief among vape marketers that people who vape are dumber than rocks. "Yes sir reedy Bob! It does it all and for the mere price of 19.95. But wait! Act now and…


#32

I am no engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. To me it’s very simple, regardless of who’s fault it is- too open/big of a chamber for a centered single coil. I wish @mjag, @Norseman, @Steampugs, etc would get on this.


#33

You’re not condescending. You’re stating your opinion and you have every right to :wink:


#34

This is definitely an interesting topic, I have heard of it but never felt compelled to comment as drama is just not my cup of tea.

Looking at the Njord RDA in pictures I have the same reaction as a lot of you, big chamber, small coil and airflow that is non adjustable…hmmmm, usually not a recipe for great flavor.

Seems to me that Morten believes everyone should vape like him and have the same taste. He definitely is not keen on criticism and sort of has a “I know better than you” attitude. I happen to prefer a warm vape so the cool vape of the Njord as it was designed would be off putting.

I don’t have any plans on reviewing the Njord, maybe when the fins are added, I don’t know. I personally would try a larger coil than the 2.5mm that is recommended to give me more of the warm vape that I enjoy.

I think the problem with the Njord is it limits the options, no adjustable airflow is a fail in my book. A successful product is one that lets the user decide on what it right for them, not try and change there mind so everyone vapes like the designer. I think Morten suffers from the same flaw that a lot of engineers suffer from, not understanding why everyone doesn’t see things the same way they do.


#35

Yeah I’ll be giving this one a miss, I haven’t heard a single good thing about it, it would appear to me that a distinct lack of product testing has occurred, either Morten didn’t send the prototypes out to trusted testers, or he did…and then ignored the feedback.
Mjag is bang on, you can’t have that much space around the coil and expect to get anything in the realm of decent flavour, you need the air to get from point A (inlet) to point B (mouth) in the most direct way possible and in between those points the surface area of the coil or coils need to cover as much of that through flow as possible, there’s just far too much air getting through on the Njord without actually hitting anything, I don’t understand the thinking behind it at all…I think as far as designing your own RDA and bringing it out onto such a huge market you really need to play the majority, if you want to sell a lot of them you need to make something that the majority will want…and from what I can gather, this is just something that Morten wants.


#36

I got promised to get both the Sandman and the Njord from Atomvapes before the bad reviews hit the net and all the negativity started to flow around all over the net.

The last talk i had with them was that they hadn’t shipped it out due to it being a Beta and therefore not available at this point.

They assured me though that they would ship the finished product out when it is available.

When it comes to the actual discussion around this RDA i won’t participate since i haven’t had the actual RDA in my hands yet and more importantly, i haven’t been able to try it out so it would all be speculation at this point and i prefer facts and a hands on approach before i start talking.


#37

I shouldn’t make this following comment, but: The use of the words ‘engineer’ and ‘science’ is at the heart of the problem here, if you get my drift. I pointed that out in a post above, and others have made similar comments.

Real engineers spend epic amounts of time looking carefully at a problem before attempting a solution. 50 years ago I was told by one of my professors a comment that remains with me and which serves me well to this day: " (when looking at engineering problems…) Unless you ask the right question, you will never get the right answer" …


#38

OK, we finally have the first pics of the so called Airblades. Atom Vapes hinted, that there might be several versions to be launched and one should be included with the Njord right from the start. In this pic we see the Chinook.
KgwGgQM


#39

Will it be able to provide better flavor? I don’t know.

The main theory, why it is lacking flavor is, that the chamber is way too big as it is. This problem would be kinda solved with this insert.

But my theory goes in a different direction. I’m repeating myself, but I still think, that the Njord acts a cyclonic separator. Could someone with more background look into this? Wikipedia: Cyclonic separation

I’ll explain, why I think, that this might be the case, with some illustrations.

A
This is more or less the airflow, as Morten sees it. The air comes in, shoots slightly angeled at the coil and “sticks” to it, due to the Coandă effect. Minor streams are directed back to the main stream with the help of the posts.

B
The result is a cyclonic stream surrounding the coil.

This stream will travel upwards to the mouthpiece. I assume, his theory is right and does provide optimal cooling. A lot of reviewers report a cool vape, we see lots of clouds, no reviewer reported cotton burns, etc. But also optimal cooling does not has to result in optimal flavor. Most reviewers report no flavor, some a little flavor and only GrimmGreen has reported good flavor, but only with slower and easier drags.

C
My theory on this is, that the cyclone forces flavor particles outward. More mass has a harder time to keep the small radius of the curve and are therefore smashed against the wall and posts by centrifugal force. This would also explain GrimmGreens better flavor with a slower drag.

The effect of cyclonic separation is well known and used in different applications. Dyson vacuum cleaners are the best known “technical” example, but you can also look at your salad spinner at home. :wink:

D
So, the Chinook AirBlades will reduce the chamber size. But I don’t see, how they would slow down the speed of the cyclone (as Morten suggested by calling them Air Brakes).
If the AirBlades are a success, then smaller chamber=greater flavor still applies … but if the AirBlades don’t improve the experience by a lot, we have a new field to look upon in future atty designs. At how the air can keep flavor particles, after picking them up.

Any thoughts or inputs on this theory?


#40

Sorry, messed things up by not knowing about picture limits. I edited my previous post with an all-in-one pic.