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Super-duper concentrated ingredients - how do you do it?


#1

Hello everyone.
Recently, in another post, some individuals (@whosyourdaddy/@Benoz/@craigtalley ) expressed an interest in some of my work given my background. I was looking trough my recipes and noticed that there is quite a bit of conversion that I am going to have to do based on the way that my mixing has evolved over the years, particularly around certain ingredients/flavors that fit the profile of “less is more”, things like acetyl-pyrazine, pure menthol and sucralose solute, and manufactured ingredients like some of the Super Concentrates tobacco blends just to name a few. I’ve never paid much attention to the reproducability of my recipes beyond my own ability to recreate them should I choose to do so, but now that I am participating on ELR and want to share some of the knowledge I’ve acquired, I realize that it’s difficult to ‘standardize’ the ingredients for some of the recipes I am most fond of, not because I can’t boil the numbers down to a specific percentage, that would be easy, but because I tend to dilute many of the flavorings, enhancers, and other solutions that I use when trying to achieve and maintain a perfect balance in my recipes. Seeing someone put a percentage measurement of 0.10% of a particular ingredient on a recipe posting doesn’t seem so out of the ordinary I guess, but in batches of only 30ml or so, accurately measuring out .03ml of anything is difficult at the very best, so diluting that ingredient in a 10% solution not only makes sense, it’s prudent. I mean, let’s be honest, measuring .30ml is MUCH easier than measuring .03ml.
So, having said all of that, does it make more sense to add unique ingredients to the database that pertain to diluted manufacturer products, along the lines of “Super Sweet (CAP) 10% in PG” and put the numbers I use to mix it, or should I boil down all the ingredients to the concentrations that are available directly from the vendors and let each mixer worry about how to mix in the minute quantities of each when I decide to post my recipes? I am leaning toward the latter, as I think anyone who mixes should be quite capable of figuring out exactly how to get specific quantities of anything into their juices, but I figured I would try to follow proper etiquette and ask the forum for a consensus.

Thanks to you all in advance, and thank you also for the warm welcome you've given to this aging ex-smoker.  I'm looking forward to sharing everything that I can with as many of you as I can, and I anticipate it being an absolute blast!  ;)

Pat (Flicker)


#2

I tried taking a peek at your mixes, but I don’t know what you go by on the calculator… Do you mind linking your ELR Profile?


#3

I don’t know if there is a consensus for the right way to do this, but personally I do the former. If I personally use a 10% dilution of a flavour, I use the “[original flavour name] 10% dilution” notation in the recipe.

I must however confess that I mainly does this for selfish reasons, so I don’t have to make any adjustments when I mix the recipe myself.


#4

The database is far too congested with name variations as it is now. I would say stick with the standard naming conventions, BUT use the “Notes” section of the recipe calculator to point out what and how your flavor has been modified.


#5

Lemon (Diluted) (MF) http://e-liquid-recipes.com/flavor/103277 definitely see the need for that i dont see why that would not be acceptable. I couldnt imagine trying to mix a small tester w/o dilution, cheers to all who use those.


#6

It makes good sense to me. Like @IzNoGoat and @worm1 pointed out, some flavors are much easier to work with if they’re diluted first. Listing them as a separate flavor, “Proper name” ( XX% dilution) (Proper manufacturer) will be the clearest, simplest way to help other mixers accurately follow your recipe. It might also help to add into the flavor notes how you made the dilution, if it’s in PG or VG or if there’s a process you used.

The data base is cluttered, it just is. It’s going to be that way no matter what anyone does. At least trying to streamline the naming conventions will help newer mixer navigate through the chaos.


#7

:wink: :smile:


#8

As other people said before, you can put that information in the comment section underneath your recipe.
That way people who want to mix up your recipe know and the database stays clean.
I’ve recently been doing some duplicate checking and I mark all the dilutions as duplicates, so they might end up getting merged with the original flavour and disappear from your recipe to be replaced by just the flavour.
Putting it in the comments is the surest way it will stay there.


#9

mate you just post them how ever you feel like i tend to agree with @TorturedZen tho. most of use will figure out how to get those super low percentages and chances are i dont have the ingredients that you mix with :sweat_smile: but am more interested in studying experienced mixers recipes i often stalk people and study there recipes to see if there are any tricks of the trade i might be able to bring to my mixing. thanks for asking tho and i look forward to seeing what you have come up with.


#10

Now I dont dilute but thinking for those who may here. If not allowed to keep their dilution listed, wont they resort to entering it as the acceptable listing at 10x the % and throw off mixing averages.


#11

They aren’t duplicates though. A 10% dilution is not the same as the full strength flavor. A duplicate is when TPA is entered as TFA or Signature or Flavor Apprentice. Then it’s the same exact flavor with a different name. By merging the dilutions into the full strength, it may make the flavor list look more orderly but it’s screwing up the calculator. The calculator looks at the % not the name.


#12

No, they are not but if I want to enter a certain flavour and I have to dig through a whole list of dilutions I’m not happy. You have 5%, 10% and a whole lot of other dilutions for one flavour.
More chances for noobs to enter the wrong one in their database too.

Those are valid points, however if you use 3% of a 10% dilution you could enter that as 0.3 for the undiluted flavour.
Unfortunately the whole database has been corrupted to such extend that it is very hard to undo.
It is very true that when you have a diluted flavour in your recipe and it gets merged the % are totally off.
I don’t know what the solution is to that problem either.


#13

Yes, if that’s how people are diluting their flavors, that’s how they should be listed. “Proper name” (XX% dilution) (Proper brand) Even the newest mixer would know if they diluted their flavor and if not, that’s why we help them. It’s also important for a new mixer not to think 1% = 10% which is what merging will do to a lot of recipes.


#14

That’s absolutely true and therefore it is very important we have this discussion.
Is putting diluted flavours in the database acceptable or not?
To me that has been unclear so far, that’s why I marked them as dupes. That doesn’t mean they will be merged.
They are being looked at first and if approved they are merged.
Clear guidelines in that respect are necessary.


#15

Yeah. It would help a lot to have more of a guide for newer people while they’re adding the flavors into their stash. Over all it’s a valiant pursuit to try and have all the known standard flavors entered in a standardized way. It helps to get the most accurate data out of the calculator but at the end of the day many flavors are not standard, people make their own flavors too or one shots or they may use code names for what ever reason. Restricting that is going to kill the creativity in a lot of ways.


#16

Exactly, and that is the bigger problem here imo. Adding the diluted flavours to the database might create extra entries in the DB which isn’t ideal, but it is the lesser of two evils imo.

The problem with this solution is that you now have an incorrect recipe that need to be manually adjusted every time you mix this recipe.

Lets not forget that the main purpose of ELR is a calculator that helps people mix their juice, the flavour DB etc. are secondary features, and if you make people jump through hoops in order to use the calculator, then many will probably simply use another calculator instead.

There is imo not a 100% ideal solution to this problem, and it is really about choosing the lesser evil.


#17

Hi Pro_Vapes. I’ve not published anything yet, and the recipes I have entered are WIPs that I have been using ID numbers for flavors that correspond to my little database. I just found out recently that even if a recipe is not published it creates an entry in the flavor database anyway, so I will most likely stop doing so, and will publish some of my completed recipes shortly. :+1:


#18

Hi everyone.
It doesn’t sound like there is a consensus yet so I’m glad I raised the point publicly. When I
began vaping, there was generally not much available beyond the ego e-cigs, and there wasn’t near as much variety in ingredients or places to acquire them at the time. Health Cabin and ecigexpress were my primary suppliers for the stuff I could buy but most of my mixes were tobacco-based, so I found myself frequently working with raw tobaccos, Everclear and PG\VG making my own dilutions that today have been termed NETs. Then again ELR wasn’t around or at least I didn’t know about it, so the flavor and eliquid recipes I did have at the time were stored either in my head or on little 3x5" note cards. Fortunately, sites like ELR appear to be marvelous forums to share creativity and knowledge, but in sharing these tidbits of knowledge it makes sense to standardize as much as possible without hindering the creativity part. Ultimately, that’s why I raised the topic in the first place, so thank you all who have weighed in thus far.
For my part, I believe new mixers will inevitably start with unaltered flavors at the manufacturers default concentrations. That being the case, it probably makes sense to enter the recipes with percentages that pertain to those, which hopefully makes the recipe more portable/reproducible. Then, as some have mentioned, use the notes section of the recipe composition page to outline how I mix/measure/create for that specific recipe, including any alterations to factory-mixed ingredients. New mixers are going to struggle in many cases to reproduce some recipes regardless until they hit their comfort zone, but at the very least we can minimize the confusion they may face in the process, at least for those willing to read instructions beyond just what ingredients and percentages. I think that may be the best way for me to do things, at least for now. I still welcome the input of the forum though as changes to the site or DB configuration could provide another mechanism for this issue. :slight_smile:


#19

I don’t share recipes a lot, because mine are mostly Wip or weird, but I can’t wait for the day a person puts 1.5% of (FA) honey in their mix,instead of diluting it prior, because the dilution got merged with the full strength. It will be priceless :rofl:


#20

IMHO Dilutions are no different than Stones or One Shots and since they are a part of the database then a dilution should be available as well. I think there should be a proper format (syntax) for entering them or maybe another option attached to the “Blue Wrench”. A sub calc so to speak, specifically for making dilutions that would automatically enter the correct diluted flavoring to the database.