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Super-duper concentrated ingredients - how do you do it?


#21

I never dilute.
Use a scale and you can go as low as needed.

Issue with dilutions and average (percentage) mixing is that you will have an average dilution and it could be less or more than the dilution amount you want. Weight is and always will be superior to percentage based mixing.


#22

Hello SmokyBlue,
I disagree with that statement. Most recipes are created/mixed using percentages. If what you intended to say was “weight is superior to volume-based mixing” that also is not a true statement. The truth of the matter is that weighing equipment that is within the price range of most mixers is rarely as precise as necessary to maintain consistency across the spectrum of users necessary for mixing batches less than around 100ml. I highly doubt most weight measurers have a scale that will accurately AND consistently measure .01% of a 30 gram mixture coming in at 0.0031 grams (31/10,000th of a gram.) For my part, I created all of my recipes using volume-based measurements because that is my preference, and assuming that the specific gravity of the ingredients I use doesn’t change considerably from batch to batch, I can recreate those recipes time after time because the equipment to accurately measure small volumes/quantities of ingredients is more within the price range that I can afford and doesn’t vary as wildly in precision from manufacturer to manufacturer as weighing equipment does.
Ultimately, my original question applies just as precisely to weight mixers as it does to volume mixers for the same reason, to allow an accurate measurement of the ingredients we use even at tiny quantities, and that includes those who mix by weight who don’t have 5 grand to spend on a laboratory-precision scale. I welcome the input of others, but having used volume mixing for almost 10 years, I am more comfortable with it and create all of my recipes with it, so ultimately it comes down to portability. If someone created a recipe using volume, then their percentages are going to be based on that volume measurement which includes the error margin of the measuring equipment that they use. Like it or not, those are some of the limitations we all have to accept when trying to recreate someone else’s recipe. :slightly_frowning_face:

Pat


#23

You do have a right to disagree, and I can disagree with your disagreement.

You asked a question, I gave you an honest answer.

I can tell you, I have yet to step into a laboratory, where they only used an average amount to mix anything. If I am going to do something, I want it to be done correctly.

Good luck!


#24

Thank you @SmokyBlue, and I apologize if that came across as demeaning or inflammatory, that was not my intent and I VERY MUCH welcome your opinion.
What I ultimately intended to say is that regardless how you choose to measure components, weight, volume or eyeball, to recreate another persons recipe precisely, we all would have to be measuring using the exact same equipment with exactly the same precision of error at exactly the same altitude (or atmospheric pressure if you prefer.) Obviously that assumes we’re all measuring by weight using earth’s gravity of 9.8m/sec/sec, which I anticipate is a safe assumption. :slight_smile: Portability of small-batch recipes is ALWAYS going to be problematic because of the margin of error associated with the measuring equipment available to us, so to minimize that margin of error, I choose to dilute my ingredients as it reduces the amount of tolerance and allows me to get much more consistent reproductions of small batches of my favorite mixes.

I thank you for your comments to my question and likewise, I wish you the best of luck my friend! :+1:

Pat


#25

I think the 2 things that stick out with myself on your post, @PAFLICK you keep bringing up portability…

definition : https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/portability :wink:

First, that means to me, you are trying to transfer, and as with cloning, I do agree… unless you have the same environment, the same techniques, the same identical ingredients, the way they created, no… aint happening. Even if it is a large batch or a micro… nopes! so there I agree… but then… I stopped cloning 6 yrs ago…

I too have been mixing for an extreme long time, and have work from a lab, so yes I get extremely anal on certain things. One of those is leaving percentage based mixes and moving to weight based. Again. More precise. My scale does go to .001g at home. I do have access to more expensive scales, yes, nature of my job. Scale prices have come down, and I do have my eye on a few new models, will probably upgrade mine once my lab is tired of hearing me whine enough.

Second, If you do not have a scale… pick one up… try it out. If you can not afford one, then save up. I do not suggest that you limit yourself. I do not know your financial issues (+/-) but by saying you have done something for 10+ yrs and you are more comfortable doing things your way, then keep on… Or step over and join in for weight based. I can promise you, you will forget about syringes, your area will be much more cleaner, and you might even love it.

To be honest… no one should be aiming for a .001g recipe, as the calculator here does not accommodate this style of micro mixing. For a long time, I would not use elr for my recipes, as I couldn’t get things posted the way I wanted… so I do admit here, my recipes posted are not exact if you go by percentages, however if you can understand I mix by weight, my recipes are even better. In order for my recipes to work, @daath would have to make them all say 100.00% and I am the first to let him know this… why no one else hasn’t noticed, or said something, I have not a clue. You could pop it into the notes area, but to me, that defeats the purpose of the calculator and I am not one to just leave in notes, how microscopic I go. Im not the one to follow if you are wanting exact on this site. :slight_smile:

I do find tho, limiting yourself to a certain style of mixing is placing you in a handicap…

If you are dead set in your ways tho… nothing I have said will change it, and again… I am not upset… I am only telling you what all I do understand. The choice is up to you, in the end… because even tho you want to try to do any dilutions… unless you understand on copying someone else’s recipe and they tell you it is a weight dilution, you will still miss out. It’s not something for me to be upset on… :slight_smile:


#26

Hello again @SmokyBlue.
That’s great that you have access to scales that precise, and I wouldn’t try to convert you away from it if that’s your preference and where you’re comfortable. I have used scales for measuring both solids and liquids, so I am not speaking out of a lack of experience, I just both choose to continue working by volume, perhaps because mixing is a hobby that I enjoy, messy or not.
The reason I brought up the topic isn’t because I don’t believe people have the capacity or capability of measuring small quantities, that would be asinine of me. My intention is to use ELR to share creations of my own design so other people can replicate them, and duplicate the experience (tast, aroma, etc.) of vaping them. That said, portability is important to me, and my point on the topic is how to make my recipes easier to recreate for people who may not know off-hand how to measure those tiny quantities.
I stand my ground that by their very definition, weight is not superior to volume, they are both absolute mechanisms we use to determine the ratio of ingredients in our recipes and working in a lab, I’m sure you already know that, but ultimately the question is which is easier and more accessible for the new mixer?


#27

I have met many new mixers, in fact helped a lot of new to mixing folks, and have shown them both ways…
The ones I do reach out to manage to get both concepts and down the road, as I check on them, they all are weight based.

I do not know if you teach others how to mix, but knowing the options ahead of time, help.

I avoid putting out items that are not ready for purchase from both manufactures and resellers. If it is not available to the public, you will not find any on any of my recipes. Keep it simple.

As for the rest, I am not up for a debate today on any of the rest you want to discuss… just remember, keep it simple. :slight_smile:


#28

Amen to that brother!!! :wink: And just so we’re all on the same page, volume measurement is also not superior to weight, it’s all about preferences and what works for each individual.


#29

fixed.:slight_smile: Keep it all simple.

Either place a disclaimer, or not… in the end, again you will only gain a glimpse of a recipe. Kind of like cloning. Someone will come along and either sub something out, changing the entire recipe or end up selling it or spreading it global. Either be happy with what you share, and hope someone can understand, or acknowledge that what ever happens, once you release a recipe, even tho it might be on your recipe page… the internet will own it.


#30

Question about using syringes to measure flavors… is the amount of liquid in the needle accounted for when measuring flavors, as different gauge needles have different amounts of liquid in them. The difference can be 1 or more drops per measurement, which can easily throw off a mix with ultra/super concentrates or extracts.


#31

Exactly… so since % based, better list all supplies, manufactures where to purchase. Still, the environments will vary, can’t help that. but it can get one closer, should they choose to do so. Good call @Pro_Vapes

*what a bloody nightmare, to have to carry so many different items, when using a scale can simplify the entire process.


#32

There is also a possibility of cross contamination of flavors when using a syringe to draw flavors from each bottle… even if you flush your syringe after each flavor, you still introduce your flushing solution to your concentrates which over time will weaken your flavors. IMO nothing should be allowed to come in contact to your concentrates… not even air, which is impossible, but keeping it to a minimum is best IMO.


#33

This depends entirely on how you use the equipment. For my part, its all about volume, so since blunt syringes have a volume in them already (in most cases, air) one can either count that as part if their measurement and draw the syringe to the precise measurement that you want, thereby drawing the exact amount of product desired and then expelling it into your mix basin. I’ve spoken with some who fill the space with PG ahead of time because they felt like the viscosity of the component being measured could cause the air pressure of the modeled space to be higher or lower than air pressure and throwing the measurement off, but the differing viscosity of the ingredients we use is not sufficient to throw off the measurement enough to warrant concern. Some people swear by electronic pipettes for minute volume measuring, but if you’re willing to spend the money on something like that, you’re interested in precision well beyond anything necessary for what we do.


#34

On the cross-contamination, when I choose to measure via volume instead of via weight (yes, I do both) I have a blunt needle for each ingredient and when I’m done I give everything a quick rinse with acetone. Anything that visibly remains behind is something we don’t want to inhale, trust me. :wink:


#35

DOH! :wink: Sorry about that - assumptions and all.


#36

IMO neither method… (volume or weight) is 100% accurate. Between the two methods the margin of error is probably close to identical, but mixing by weight is a lot less messy and time consuming and a lot less likely to contaminate or weaken you flavors… and when all is said and done, it’s a lot cheaper over time.


#37

A lot to think on for you @PAFLICK… serious, tho… in the end, it’s all on you.
Keep it all simple, realize if you go in too deep, there is no backing out :stuck_out_tongue:

Please… stay away from the acetone! Even rubbing alcohol is a preferred cleaner, failing that, vinegar. even still… recycling syringes, cheaper in the long run to replace. This is why I love weights, you really do not have to deal with all that. To a newbie, if I can show them both ways, it is why most stick with the weight method.

Beyond all of this, have some fun, show off what you know, and realize at the end of the day, none of it matters, except that you are happy with what you have tried to do. Do your best, people watch :wink:


#38

…on mixing small weights into a 30ml. Scales can struggle measuring small amounts but usually only at the beginning (after zeroing out TARE). Don’t zero out! Pay attention, or even write it down. Add your PG or Nic first to get your numbers up, then don’t TARE your scale. Once you are over that initial .10 - .15g scales are more responsive to those .01g measurements. Keep fans and AC from blowing on your scale for accuracy. Go slowly and give the scale time for drops to settle.


#39

…quote of the Week

I like 100 Proof Vodka …good for rinsing bottles after washing and you can see how it breaks the surface tension and makes the water sheet off the glass surface …speeds drying


#40

Okay, @SmokyBlue, I have nothing to think on, and I am quite advanced enough in years and working as a chemist for all of my professional life (and I’m nearing retirement) that if I choose to use my scales or I choose to use my syringes or pipettes, i’s my choice and you cannot, nor should you presuppose to, educate someone on which method they prefer. I prefer using my volume gear because mixing is much more akin to alchemy than it is to chemistry.

Your statement in your first post of “Weight is and always will be superior to percentage based mixing.” is not only wrong because you are trying to push your preference on everyone else, it’s entirely false because ALL recipes on any sites that I have found them are given in percentages. Maybe on your site you provide recipes to make 50 grams of Mothers Milk and provide everything by weight, but I will say you are the exception to the norm if that’s true, but hey, your site your choice.

I have scales and I use them if I don’t want to clean my gear afterwards or I don’t have time, but regardless of which you use, the smaller the batch the larger the margin of error, so my topic on diluting still applies regardless of whether you choose to demean yourself to the extent that you would mix like a “newb.”

Regarding acetone being unsafe, that’s true for anything when taken out of context, including rubbing alcohol and vinegar. Don’t believe me, see what drinking a liter of any of them will do. FDA regulated labs, at least the one I am currently working in, require acetone cleansing as a part of water washing and sterilization, so I am 100% certain that there are no health risks associated with using acetone to clean gear, and no one who reads this topic should be under the false notion that is the case.

The topic I raised, paraphrased is “should I list diluted solutions or measure as they come by default” and I still maintain that regardless of using my scales and beakers/flasks or pipettes/syringes directly into the bottles, the margin of error in measuring large quantities of anything is lower than it is when working with minute quantities.

You can think on all of that if you want to @SmokyBlue, but I won’t presume to tell you what you should or shouldn’t, even in my own topic.

Pat