Preach!!! There are pros and cons to both methods, and everyone has their preference. I didn’t intend on turning the topic into a @#&^ measuring contest on the methods. The topic was to determine how best to present the information for people to recreate my recipes and accommodate the widest audience possible. Thanks for your comments! 
4 Likes
I appreciate you’re trying to be helpful but if you had bothered to look up @PAFLICK by clicking on his avatar, you would’ve seen that he’s been vaping and mixing since 2008.
Not the newbie you think you are talking to 
2 Likes
So yeah. Back on topic.
I do believe that as a whole, at a high level view the answer would be no. Entering a bunch of dilutions would make the database even bigger and cause more confusion.
There would be so many extra adds to listing it would be ridiculous.
Even I would have to start doing the math on someone’s ultra defined recpie trying to figure out how to calaculate the reverse dilution of 5% this and 10% that and 7.9% of that.
Personally, I think it’s best to insert methodology in the note. Ie. to get 0.005% if “x” i diluted this flavor with pg at a ration of 1-10.
Some to sum it up. Dilution IMO should be a methodology note not an actual flavor entry. (With exceptions like menthol dilutions from the manufacture).
5 Likes
I am not turning this into a pissing contest… only replying… 
(check)
What you want to use, like I said said over and over, is on YOU… not me… lol…
Congrats on near retirement… hope you enjoy it.
I believe that @TorturedZen’s reply was the best regarding the database
Perhaps instead of turning it into me pushing weight on to you, you should have polled the community in asking what everyone’s best mixing habits were… you still can do that. it is not all about me, the topic you are all about, is from what I understand, what would be the best way to release your recipes so others can try them. I know what I believe, I know what my lab has taught me, and I know who pays my checks too. 
there is a lot more to your questions, and I have simply given up my advise to you…
since 2004 here with smoking everywhere… for me… so we are all not newbies… YAY!!
and @Chrispdx made yet another good post, again, along the lines of our TZ…
Similar to what I have posted too
1 Like
You have to realize that a flavor with a 10% or whatever modifier in the name is totally susceptible to new user selection simply because they haven’t created a personal flavor stash (which I would guess is at least 90% of them). They may see the modified name in the list before the proper name ever appears and they go with that, thus compounding the DB issue. I’ve communicated with a few users about their name choices. They are blissfully unaware.
2 Likes
I realize perfectly well, this is why we should be helping newer folks. While it’s commendable to try and keep some kind of order in the list of flavor names, this should not come at the expense of accurate naming. A 10% dilution is not the same and a full strength concentrate so it shouldn’t be labeled as such.
The OP question …perhaps oversimplifying [me] was “what would be easiest and least confusing?” I might have to agree with TZ and SB as all I can picture in my mind’s eye is NewbX loading up his stash with the wrong flavor from that drop down.
Proposed solution: This is a great topic and does have more importance as we look at newer “Super” flavs. Perhaps @PAFLICK you could start a new thread and just put all your tips and tricks for making dilutions and some (or all) of your customized concentration flavorings. Then in your Public recipes you just put in the link to that Topic where all is revealed in one spot.
Also you might find more input on the concept overall …get it all in one thread. It’s not that new of a concept as we have all struggled with those flavors where you add 1-3 drops per 30ml. Even for oldschool flavs, as mentioned above Honey (FA) and Ceylon Cinnamon etc. Making dilutions allows for increased accuracy and that’s what’s important, regardless of measuring technique. It’s all just grams/ml.
Anyone could just Search the Forum for “dilution” but I bet it is mostly just a ton of one-off comments …fractured. It could be an important contribution to see what you are doing and start the conversation with how YOU do it. If it’s all split up in each recipe it might seem to make sense, but still fractured info. It would be very cool to be able to soak it all up in a more condensed format like a fresh post. Count me in!
Your recipes might not be the best for Newbs …giving them 3 more options to add to their stash for WS-23 as DB flav choices? ennghk …in the end it could result in very muddy waters (as more people did the same) Best thing for new mixers is to be able to be easily successful (IMHO). The rest of us (me!) want to see the stuff you mentioned in OP …interest piqued.
I also have made similar custom extracts and made public recipes using them. I gave some info in the recipe notes to the topic where the idea was birthed…
3 Likes
Thank you for your thoughtful response @50YearsOfCigars.
I concur with each point you raised. In-particular something that has me concerned is the ability to acquire pure or near-pure polar reagents like nicotine. I am woefully addicted to the substance after all of these years but I recognize it is still an extremely dangerous high-toxicity ingredient that is being made available to people who may have limited experience with precautionary lab procedures and the risk or nicotine poisoning is getting much higher with concentrations of 300mg/ml+ - to my point, this one is a real danger of measuring in minute volumes/weights and can have some adverse effects on the vaping community at large in the eyes of the public - much more so than batteries exploding in the pocket! 
I have decided on a format for my recipes that I am hopeful will facilitate mixers of all levels of experience in recreating my originals, and hopefully that will minimize the confusion and questions they may have.
Thanks again for the thoughtful response.
That’s awesome @BoDarc, thank you for the encouragement. And that looks like an awesome recipe - I will definitely be mixing to try it out! I did settle on a format for the recipes however, and I published my first this morning. I welcome any comments on how I might make it clearer without introducing confusion or generating tons of questions.
2 Likes
I apologize for my tone in last nights response, so I will address your original post and disregard all of the back-and-forth after that.
“I never dilute.”
In your post, you did not offer your opinion on the topic’s primary facets. You posted your reply to promptly dismiss this important topic, I assume because it’s not a practice in which you engage, so it surely must have no merit.
“Use a scale and you can go as low as needed.”
This is an opinion erroneously stated as fact. Firstly, not all scales/balances are created equal and secondly, you have no idea how “low” people may need to “go”. Even if those variables were known, it would still not make that statement a fact.
Issue with dilutions and average (percentage) mixing is that you will have an average dilution and it could be less or more than the dilution amount you want.
To be honest, I have no idea what you were trying to convey here as I have never heard the terms average mixing or percentage mixing, but it doesn’t appear to be relevant to the original topic so I will disregard it.
“Weight is and always will be superior to percentage based mixing.”
At this point in your post, you injected a new topic that is not relevant to the ongoing discussion, and in the process attempted to demean me (and anyone who doesn’t measure by weight I guess) by assuming that I do not, or perhaps lack the capacity to, measure by weight simply because the example I used in the original post was listed in milliliters. First of all, anyone who attempts to re-create ELR recipes uses “percentage based mixing” because all recipes entered here, to my knowledge, are entered using ratios of ingredients in relation to the total, i.e. percentages (%). Secondly, even if your intention was to say “Weight is and always will be superior to {volume}-based mixing” that also is an opinion erroneously stated as fact, and not related to the topic in any semblance. The point of fact is they are both methods of measuring and are neutrally equal. You might as well be stating ‘the paint brush is superior to the chisel in art’, equally as preposterous and equally erroneous.
If you really want to teach people and not dictate to them, you should familiarize yourself with the phrase “In my opinion” which can also be shortened to “IMO”.
I anticipate another response to this reply to somehow attempt justifying everything you said in your first post as true and legitimate, but ultimately it’s all just your opinion even if you state it to be fact.
Let me show you how it works:
In my opinion, you have an inherent need to be revered as an expert, whatever that means to you, and to always be right. It also would appear that even when you’re clearly wrong or have mis-stated something, you lack the ability to apologize, formally or informally and move on. Lastly, and again, this is only my opinion, you seem to require having the last word in any discussion.
For my part, I will end our discussion here as I think the topic content speaks for itself, and I feel I have expended much more energy on this front than it merits given the original topic. If you wish to discuss further you can message me directly.
To everyone else who has/had some interest in the original topic, I apologize for derailing it to the extent that I did. Being a professional analyst I can tell you with certainty that the ‘anal’ part applies in it’s entirety!
Pat
2 Likes
The way I see things Pat…
First… Most on there are not how can I say this better? Let me break down your first post and go from there… might work a bit better for you and myself.
The first thing I noticed from you:
" I was looking trough my recipes and noticed that there is quite a bit of conversion that I am going to have to do based on the way that my mixing has evolved over the years, particularly around certain ingredients/flavors that fit the profile of “less is more”, things like acetyl-pyrazine, pure menthol and sucralose solute, and manufactured ingredients like some of the Super Concentrates tobacco blends just to name a few."
This is true…not that I say you lie, but that I agree on this. Less is more, in certain situations.
Next:
“I’ve never paid much attention to the reproducability of my recipes beyond my own ability to recreate them should I choose to do so, but now that I am participating on ELR and want to share some of the knowledge I’ve acquired,”
Why not? Do you not have friends that vape or mix too? If so, do you share with them, and if not… after all these years, why now?
Next:
" I realize that it’s difficult to ‘standardize’ the ingredients for some of the recipes I am most fond of, not because I can’t boil the numbers down to a specific percentage, that would be easy, but because I tend to dilute many of the flavorings, enhancers, and other solutions that I use when trying to achieve and maintain a perfect balance in my recipes. "
In flavorings and additives, I rarely dilute anything these days. There just is not a need, I don’t use sweeteners much at all. I create my own vanilla/vanillin, citric/malic acetyl-pyraizne (from powder) and I use ws5 and menthol. So I understand creating the dilutions. I have sold my recipes for all of my additives to a company I can not name, nda. However I do use the products I have sold and I am not bothered to recreate it every time I need it, I tell the lab and they send it out to me. I have been grateful for that, and it’s not often I run low, so no, I just do not do that any longer. From a manufacture that sells my creations, there is no longer a need for me to do so.
Next:
" Seeing someone put a percentage measurement of 0.10% of a particular ingredient on a recipe posting doesn’t seem so out of the ordinary I guess, but in batches of only 30ml or so, accurately measuring out .03ml of anything is difficult at the very best, so diluting that ingredient in a 10% solution not only makes sense, it’s prudent. I mean, let’s be honest, measuring .30ml is MUCH easier than measuring .03ml. "
Ok on this one I have to stop here and say… no one has yet had any issues with that small amount of mixing. I have had people mixing up my Winstin with no issues… and it has one ingredient in it with .07% or 2 drops or .04g/.04ml http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/1909634/Smoky+Blue%27s+Winstin+Tobacco So what ever you have… post it up. Don’t be thinking it is too small to use or think others can not. I do not dilute Lime Wedge from FLV. Sure I could, but why make extra work when I can use a scale and achieve what I need?? You certainly would have issues with a syringe! I think you think I am pushing weight on you, but it is what works easiest for myself and others.
next:
" So, having said all of that, does it make more sense to add unique ingredients to the database that pertain to diluted manufacturer products, along the lines of “Super Sweet (CAP) 10% in PG” and put the numbers I use to mix it, or should I boil down all the ingredients to the concentrations that are available directly from the vendors and let each mixer worry about how to mix in the minute quantities of each when I decide to post my recipes? "
@TorturedZen as already said:
but you did not respond to him like you did me. He is the one that helps with dups etc on elr, and a pretty decent guy… but you I guess did not see his post. Nor did you see how many agree with him. Cluttering up an already messed up database to me, won’t be so hot… keep it to notes like I said. Put a disclaimer on it. That you mix by using ____________.
Next:
" I am leaning toward the latter, as I think anyone who mixes should be quite capable of figuring out exactly how to get specific quantities of anything into their juices, but I figured I would try to follow proper etiquette and ask the forum for a consensus."
If someone is new, they might have issues, but they tend to go to the popular ones and repeat it all throughout elr. It is why the popular recipes are so popular. Let’s not talk about strawberry. 
However, people that a bit of sense can mix most anything. I have seen some newbies, and even counting myself in this years ago, pick up mixing like a duck takes to swimming. What I am trying to say is do it. Just post what you do and hope someone can understand you… Don’t get all technical, but do not let someone get so lost either. It is a fine line and most only understand “I found a recipe and I mixed it and” so keep things simple.
I think you really on purpose take me wrong and it is easy to do in text. period. I broke all of your very first post down…
Perhaps now you understand where I am coming from. I have been around for ages, and have seen all kinds of things.
I even told you poll people to see how they mix.
Chances are tho, us users of scales as you like to call it… yes, we are a minority, however, being so analytical yourself, you already understand the reasons, yet again, you are still going on about it. It’s not me. I actually hope you will make a spot for yourself and enjoy your experience sharing recipes. It’s nice to see someone that is thinking before just sharing… Now go back and re read everything I said and think on what I am saying here. I know we both speak English… so yeah…
Your message this morning… yeah maybe you did take me wrong…
I also have a storm coming, family up from down on the beach and I shouldn’t have to do this, either yesterday or now… but I did in hopes of reaching out to you and sharing some advise.
You asked for it in your post, and this is just my advise. No you do not have to take everything I say as gospel…
Try to have a better day.
Smoky
PS I have yet to derail this thread I wont email you, appreciate the offer.
For every application there is a process, a way to go about doing things… You wouldn’t want to take your chisel to something you only want to make fine lines on… you wouldn’t take a wide paint brush for those fine lines too. This is what I know. I can’t use a syringe to measure out .04ml of flavoring. (I could but I know I would be off in some way) so yes, scales do make better sense to me.
2 Likes
Now this is def off topic… and nopes I wont do an inbox…
@50YearsOfCigars… I still think you are amazing tho
Brave man 
I still giggle over that 15% 
but I think we both learned a few things and that is my point… we all still learn, fuss and argue… but at the end of the day, it’s what we take home and enjoy. What you like, I might not, but we still sleep dreaming of good vapes and how we like doing it…
If we all mixed the same, tasted the same… this place wouldn’t be here, and I know I would be so bored…
We all would be, and there wouldn’t be a need to share.
I looked over your recipe, looks fine to me, as is in the recipe.
this bit here:
****For the tiny ratios like the SC “Havana Dry” in the note above and the Vape Wizard and 5% Acetyl Pyrazine in the listed recipe, I personally prefer to dilute those ingredients at 10% in 90% PG to facilitate accurately measuring those small quantities, in which case I just multiply by 10 the quantity I measure or weigh. It helps me reduce my margin of error in the measurement of those ingredients when creating small batches (less than 120ml) and allows me to more easily recreate this recipe with consistent results.
You have explained how you did it. Me personally, if I were to mix it, I would use scales and no dilutions at all. It is easy to scale up and down for the amounts you want to use, and true, some recipes there is a limit of how small, due to how the calculator here is set up. It is also easier to mess up, when using a syringe to add an extra “drop” and that too is all it takes to change a recipe’s outcome. One tiny drop and that recipe has extra compounds not computed. (Especially if you deal with ultra concentrated flavorings).
As I said earlier, for a long time I would not post up my recipes due to how the calculator was working for me. I know my recipes are 99.99% all Flavorah…I know how many drops are in my mls. and have noticed some of the drops the calculator puts out, is not exact. This is why I said, because I am so anal on things, the best I can hope for is that someone can figure it out, to grab a taste of what my recipes are about, and can enjoy it, despite the limitations I found. For it to work as an exact, the calculator would have to read 100.00% total, for as low as I go.
I hope this makes a bit of sense to you, Pat… if not, I can break it down even more. I did show Lars what I was saying and even he understood and said I was the first in the last 8+ yrs to bring it up.
1 Like
Hello again @50YearsOfCigars.
Unfortunately, the pharmaceutical industry is vastly different and most of the ingredients we use, even in the post-processing lab, are formulated and compounded in-house. Having said that, the levels of purity and tolerance are extremely high in most aspects, so it doesn’t pose an issue in that instance per se as it is well documented and regimented in that environment. With respect to vaping, I concur completely with your assertion, and believe that flavor manufacturers would do well to cater to the vaping/DIY enthusiast since it is still a rapidly expanding market for them and will most certainly translate to increased income for them!
Conversations about diluting flavors have been around for the entire life of ELR. Nothing new or groundbreaking today. Here’s a very early post on dilutions, with a lot of very good comments…
Especially…
It sounds like the OP’s most standard dilution is 9:1 / PG:Flavor dilution and can be easily explained in the notes section by a quick explanation of moving the decimal point left by one number to use the pure flavor percentage for any dilutions in your recipes. This way you can maintain the Most Commonly Used Flavor name in the data base.
Like @anon84779643 I don’t dilute any flavors, but I do add a note like…
1 drop Lemon MF per 30 mls.
1 drop Orange MF per 15 mls.
Some might ask why per 30 mls. It’s the minimal amount I find adequate for testing and steeping. Also I haven’t found any flavor to need any further dilution in a mix.
You might also say… “Oh No… DROPS!” I say yes drops. I have yet to find any pg based flavor or extract the doesn’t register between .02-.03 mls per drop when using slender tip bottles or the standard MF bottles. Knowing your flavors also helps when using drops
It is actually insane to test some flavors that high… especially known highly concentrated flavors or extracts. Usually in the flavor research process of choosing flavors you want to try, you should be able to locate a close starting percentage for your SF test… IF you know how to navigate the Flavor Note Page.
IMO it’s best to start at the low end of any suggested usage % and work up or down from there if needed.
I really don’t do much SF test myself anymore, because I have my own method of gauging most flavors properties.
That was true at one time, but more and more mixers are becoming attracted to and is using this concept. But as long as you can buy 120 mls of concentrate for $6.99, it’ll never be as popular as mixing high usage % standard flavors.
These are my thoughts and opinions from my mixing experiences… YMMV.
2 Likes
Maybe you should have said “IMO” 
But spot on, @Pro_Vapes, not that I think he will acknowledge or agree.
Thank you.
3 Likes
I did add a disclaimer… 
3 Likes
You certainly did, although you have to read the entire post to get to it. Fairly evident some respond without doing so…
1 Like
IMO
So by that kind of logic, everyone that makes a post should put a disclaimer on each post they make.
Forever and ever.
Absolutely redundant. but hey “IMO” Good luck with that.
2 Likes