20-22 people linked to health related vaping problems:

(September 27, 2019):

Tests show bootleg marijuana vapes tainted with hydrogen cyanide - NBC News commissioned laboratory tests of knock-off marijuana vapes that found a pesticide linked to hydrogen cyanide in 10 out 10 products

CannaSafe also tested 10 of the unregulated cartridges for pesticides. All 10 tested positive. The products all contained myclobutanil, a fungicide that can transform into hydrogen cyanide when burned. “You certainly don’t want to be smoking cyanide,” said Antonio Frazier, the vice president of operations at CannaSafe. “I don’t think anyone would buy a cart that was labeled hydrogen cyanide on it.” Pirzada described the existence of myclobutanil as “very disturbing,” adding that “it’s going to cause a very toxic effect on the lungs.”

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Very little information available about “boiling point” (representing a temperature of thermal decomposition of Myclobutanil). No pressure stated (one might assume 1 Atm) : Boiling point/Boiling range: 81 °C (177.8 °F).

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The HCN level of the 50 commonly consumed tobacco products (47 cigarettes and 3 cigars) obtained from local store is ranged between 17.56 ± 1.02 and 1553.98 ± 0.56 μg per stick, this acquired amount is more than FDA approval (10 μg per stick), so the harmful effects of smoking is indicative.

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With Polyurethane (the most common material in foam type pillows) combustion, a lot of HCN is released.

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I ran across this earlier today from a legal grower:

“Myclobutanil (hydrogen cyanide) aka Eagle 20 is used to prevent mold on your crop! It is illegal in most states but permitted at very low residual levels in others. This is not from the vape cartridges but from shitty growers using Eagle 20 on their crop, then it makes its way in to either the wax product or in to the extract.”

The regulated 3 that NBC tested were clean. If the growers statement is true then its more proof that the problem is from underground sources on the street.

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Note that Myclobutanil itself (as opposed to decomposition, reaction products) is not Hydrogen Cyanide.

Came across Washington State’s current list of allowed pesticides in Cannabis cultivation:

https://cms.agr.wa.gov/getmedia/2471d816-dc81-4c5f-849d-ed6dcd26aa02/Pesticidesalloweduseonmarijuana

Nice to (not) see Myclobutanil on the list.

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I assume that its heavily regulated, so maybe records can be used to trace these fuckers. Maybe.

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The tragic irony of this whole emphasis on (illicit, entirely uncontrollable) products is what kind of (entirely nonexistent) protections that those State Taxed Coffin Nails have waiting in store for your internal organs:

II. Pesticides in Tobacco (2013)

Tobacco, like Cannabis, is principally intended for consumption via combustion and
inhalation. Unlike Cannabis, the agricultural inputs used with tobacco have been rigorously
studied and regulated (although pesticide residue monitoring is far from uniform, as we
will see). For this reason, regulations for tobacco productions are an especially useful
comparison for similar regulations for Cannabis.

Tobacco is produced by a large and powerful agricultural industry that makes
significant use of pesticides to protect the growing crop and harvested tobacco during
curing, manufacturing, and storage. As many as 16 separate applications of pesticides are
recommended by tobacco companies just in the interval between greenhouse seed sowing
and transplantation into the field (Taylor 1994). In the United States, however, regulation
of pesticide use in tobacco presents unusual dichotomies when compared to pesticide
regulation in food production. As described above, the EPA is charged with regulating
pesticide use in agriculture, and for literally hundreds of agricultural commodities there
are explicit maximum residue level (MRL) tolerances that may not be exceeded. By the
early 1990s, there were at least 37 pesticides approved by the EPA for use on tobacco crops
in this country, although since that time many of these materials have had their
registrations for use in tobacco cancelled (Anon. 2003).

While EPA approvals address requirements for worker protective gear and health
monitoring, application rates and frequencies, pre-harvest intervals, and other factors, the
EPA has determined that pesticide residues in finished tobacco pose a negligible
incremental risk to health when compared to the direct effects of nicotine and other
combustion products in tobacco smoke. The EPA has chosen to not regulate pesticide
residues in domestically grown tobacco, and it does not issue residue level guidelines for
tobacco products at this time. This is despite the stipulation in the Family Smoking
Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (Public Law 111-31, H.R. 1256, June 22, 2009, which
provided the FDA with authority to protect public health by regulating tobacco products)
that “Beginning 2 years after the date of enactment of the Family Smoking Prevention and
Tobacco Control Act, a tobacco product manufacturer shall not use tobacco, including
foreign grown tobacco, that contains a pesticide chemical residue that is at a level greater
than is specified by any tolerance applicable under Federal law to domestically grown
tobacco.” At the point in 2011 when this law would seem to have been enforceable, the
FDA issued a statement to the tobacco industry that included the following statement: “To
determine whether there are pesticide residue tolerance levels applicable to domestic
tobacco, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) consulted with the U.S. Department of
Agriculture (USDA) and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). According to USDA
and EPA, under their laws there are currently no established tolerance limits for pesticide
chemical residues that apply to domestically grown tobacco. If such a tolerance is
established, we plan to provide this information to tobacco product manufacturers.”

At this writing, the situation has not changed, and in this country pesticide monitoring has been largely left to the discretion of the industry, with few exceptions, described below. The U.S. tobacco industry is known to have vigorously lobbied against stricter pesticide controls and public disclosure of residue levels (McDaniel et al. 2005). The situation in the European Union is similar. …

… The EPA regulates which pesticides can be applied during production and
subsequent manufacturing, but in general it has not regulated pesticide residue levels in
the final products of domestic producers (Stephenson 2003; Deyton 2011). Instead, the
agency requires evaluation of residue behavior in tobacco from field trials, and has
demanded additional data when pesticides or known harmful breakdown products exceed
0.1 parts per million (ppm) in the harvested or cured crop (Stephenson 2003). Additional
information regarding pyrolysis products (compounds formed during combustion) in
tobacco smoke have been requested when residue levels have exceeded this threshold, but
empirically determined levels in smoke have not been determined to warrant further
regulatory action by the agency. …

… the American tobacco market consists of both
domestic and imported product. Since imported tobacco is not subject to EPA regulations
in the production stage, scrutiny is applied upon import instead. For imported tobacco and
the portion of domestic tobacco that the federal government procures under the tobacco
price support program, the USDA monitors the residues of 20 pesticides that are otherwise
prohibited for tobacco use in the U.S. This monitoring regime protects domestic growers
from unfair competition from foreign producers and mitigates the public’s exposure risk to
highly toxic pesticides banned for use in this country.

Source:

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The confounder. The illicit grow crops still well exceed those which are in any way regulated/tested by States

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Yes I’m sure that is correct but vendors of products such as this keep good records and know their customers. How available it is I have no idea but doubt that this is over the counter. When hundreds of people get sick and people start dying people get very nervous. I thought of the (slim) possibility that they may be traced that way; through sales and other records. Cannabis growers are interconnected and heavily invested, so I would think that they know who the shitty growers are and I would think that they’re all pretty angry about this. But I’m in Indiana and far removed from all of it so a little wishful thinking and speculation is all this is.

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I fear that the supply chains are far too scattered and disconnected for that kind of conscientious community accountability. As much as I have all of my life enjoyed THC, the legacy of egregious, tragic environmental damage that has occurred in California (as well as some in the PNW, as well) is a tragic testament to the power of the love of money to render humans into the cruelest and most irreverent of animals. Ultimately (in the case of all psychotropic substances), the vast majority of societal dangers and harms (in terms of the criminal elements and markets, as well as physiological and toxicological harms) arise out of the throttlings and prohibitions of drug laws and controls themselves. This first truth remains purposefully obscured, while scapegoating reigns. Blame doctors, blame pharma, blame everything but the actually causative drug laws.

If the State had any sense (or rationality or humanity), they would assist their populace in maximizing their working practical knowledge surrounding what exists in the market, and what to beware of. There existed free anonymous testing Labs in the SF Bay area in the late 1960s and early 1970s that tested street-drugs, and thus performed profoundly important harm reduction services. Actually useful activities and knowledge. The fetid pile of Theocratic Garbage behind the over 100 year War on People who use Drugs is a travesty. Waging war upon human nature by default and by decree is an immoral tyranny. A demonstrable failure.

If and when people imagine (or are enchanted by some “sales pitch”) that doctors / pharma / government will protect them, holding them free from harm and personal responsibility, (and most perniciously) autonomous free agency where it comes to the bodies and minds of competent adults, they are very likely bound to be profoundly disappointed by the ineluctable complete ham-fisted incompetence of the ruled (that is, public agencies and police farces) in attempting to manufacture consent while appeasing obtuse masses with their Thunderdome Theaters of crime, punishment, fear, and despite. The fears we favor. The fetters we forge ourselves. The idiocy of expecting and/or allowing others to live our lives for us leads to nothing but serfdom.

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the paradigm of religious authority under priests has been replaced by the paradigm of quasi-religious authority of doctors over patients. Instead of dazzling peasants with Latin phrases and convoluted creeds as did the priests of yore, doctors now dazzle their patients with abstruse medical terminology and jargon. The result is that very few people have thought to question the authority of the new state-sponsored religion of medicine.

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Insofar as the biologist or physician chooses to act as a scientist, he has an unqualified obligation to tell the truth; he cannot compromise that obligation without disqualifying himself as a scientist. In actual practice, only certain kinds of situations permit the medical man to fulfill such an unqualified obligation to truth telling.

Insofar as the biologist or physician chooses to act as a social engineer, he is an agent of the particular moral and political values he espouses and tries to realize or of those his employer espouses and tries to realize.

The biologist’s or physician’s claim that he represents disinterested abstract values - such as mankind, health, treatment - should be disallowed; and his efforts to balance, and his claim to represent, multiple conflicting interests … should be exposed for what they conceal, perhaps his secret loyalty to one of the conflicting parties or his cynical rejection of the interests of both parties in favor of his own self-aggrandizement.

Thomas Szasz, “The Theology of Medicine: The Political-Philosophical Foundations of Medical Ethics

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Source: Thomas Szasz, "Ceremonial Chemistry: The Ritual Persecution of Drugs, Addicts, and Pushers"

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After the blast, we will be so glad that our every breath was duly managed by these Moral Ninnies from Hell:

:thinking:

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I also find it difficult that an organization that prides itself on following epidemiology has failed to notice how it has spread from “patient zero” and shows an obvious drug distribution network ranging out from the Wisconsin-Illinois border. That’s just a “duh” observation. How much tax money does the CDC get from tobacco?

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They tried this hard.

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Seriously though, it is part of their job to track the source of the epidemic. It’s another clear indication that there’s more to this than a ‘public health issue’. Anyone who’s seen a documentary about an infectious disease spread that involved the CDC has seen how diligently they work to trace the outbreak to the source (and how proud they are to toot their own klaxon). For them to omit that is just another piece of evidence toward the Grand Con$piracy, to me. And believe me, I’m no conspiracy theorist. They’re just making it too easy.

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The first rule of any investigation, follow the evidence. Not hard.

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CDC (September 27, 2019):

Among 805 cases reported as of September 24, 2019, 69% were in males; 62% of patients were aged 18–34 years. Among patients with data on substances used in e-cigarettes, or vaping products, tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)-containing product use was reported by 76.9% (36.0% reported exclusive THC-product use); 56.8% reported nicotine-containing product use (16.0% reported exclusive nicotine-product use).

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“THC is the most prominent link across patients,” CDC deputy director Anne Schuchat said Friday during a teleconference.

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Dr Michael Siegel (September 29, 2019):

The CDC has finally admitted that black market THC vape carts are a major culprit in the respiratory disease outbreak that has affected 805 people and resulted in 13 deaths. Instead of continuing to emphasize that “no single product” is linked to all the cases, the CDC clearly stated yesterday that “THC is the most prominent link across patients” and the agency changed its warning to specifically mention THC: “While this investigation is ongoing, CDC recommends that persons consider refraining from using e-cigarette, or vaping, products, particularly those containing THC.”

the CDC finally provided very specific information about the black market THC vape carts that were used: “Although no single brand name was reported by all patients, a prefilled THC cartridge sold under the brand name Dank Vapes was reported by 57 (66%) patients. In Wisconsin, two groups of friends (two patients in one group and three in the second group) who became ill after using THC-containing cartridges specifically reported sharing Dank Vapes cartridges. Dank Vapes was the only e-cigarette product reported by one of the patients.”

… Now that it is clear that the outbreak is not being caused by store-bought electronic cigarettes, but by THC vaping cartridges and perhaps other counterfeit black market products, it is critical that the five states which have banned e-cigarettes or flavored e-cigarettes (Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Michigan, New York, and Washington) rescind these bans and focus on limiting the illegal distribution of THC vaping products.

Source:
CDC Finally Admits that Black Market THC Vape Carts are Major Culprit in Respiratory Disease Outbreak

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Now that CDC has made a tiny fine point (about THC juice causality), at best buried within it’s generally overwhelmingly boring, tediously long public information releases, they “soldier on” with just the kind of simplistic moronic garbage that they well know we as wage slaves of the Consumer State have come to know and love. The only problem is that they have “flipped the moron script” from “gooder” to “badder”:


Source: https://www.oregonlive.com/news/g66l-2019/09/e7445135d21001/here-are-the-ways-your-kid-is-hiding-and-disguising-vaping-from-you.html

Once again, CDC “mission accomplished”! Mass delusions as well as increased harms have been assured.

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Solider on is right. Wonder what (if any) this NEW (fine print) information will have…

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Couldn’t agree with you more. The CDC is definitely dragging their feet on this one.

Well said! Both of you.
And in the meantime I have to deal with people in my life watching me vape…asking why haven’t I stopped. Haven’t you heard the news??? Makes me furious.:rage:

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Not at all a “simple picture” - and that is a problem (where it comes to public comprehension of the details).

New England Journal of Medicine (paper published on October 2, 2019):

Pathology of Vaping-Associated Lung Injury” (main paper text, brief in length)

Supplementary Appendix” (where the bulk of the specific information resides)

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NBC News article (Oct 2, 2019; less technical and detailed than the above-linked paper):

‘A direct, toxic chemical injury’: What vaping does to the lungs

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VICE (October 2, 2019): “New Study Casts Doubt on the Role of Oils in Vape Illnesses

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TIME (October 2, 2019):

A New Study Provides a Clue About Why People Are Getting Sick and Dying From Vaping

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So it appears that it may not be lipoid pneumonia, AND/OR the currently accepted method or diagnosis via pink dye marker test is questionable as to it’s validity. It appears to be representative of damage commonly associated with chemical inhalation resulting in “burn” damage. Perhaps the Cyanide gas byproduct of vaporization of certain pesticides known to be used frequently in the cultivation of Cannabis, as I believe I read on here was a theoretical possibility. I did not go back and check the earlier readings so please forgive/correct me if I stated that incorrectly. I have to admit I’m being a bit lazy but this isn’t my job.

I hope the bulk of researchers aren’t being myopic on the fist suspected theory. I did look back at @Raven-Knightly post #264, this thread where the one researcher or Dr. (Lazy again), did not believe the cases appeared to be classic Lipoid pneumonia based on exibition of patient symptoms and the fact that they are showing up critical at emergency rooms as opposed to their Primary care physician or outpatient clinic. That was a good read.

However I still believe they should first take the tangible evidence, in this case all of the product samples they have managed to gather from the known victims of the suspected Vaping related illnesses and try to reproduce the results on a non-human tests subject ( or a human politician :wink: ). Repeat with isolated compounds of the samples, break compounds down further if needed and repeat test. Isolate and iterate. A sort of binary bisection testing method. See if there is a specific critical compound or component first, for public safety. Then worry about all of the detailed understanding, multiple health concerns, specific mechanisms, ecetera.

Please accept my apology if my support of animal testing related to this matter is offensive to your beliefs. I love animals, often more than people.

“No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong” - Albert Einstein

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Nice example of how the media left out facts of an incident even not quoting whole content to be able to include nicotine mentions in the story.

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Ok, just when I thought I had reached a pinnacle, this makes me madder yet at media and gooberment. I have run out of expletives that adequately demonstrate my anger. I am going to try to decompress.

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Don’t expect “voices of reason” to ultimately prevail - but knowing that they do exist is somewhat heartening:

VICE (September 11, 2019):

The War on Drugs Is Coming for Vapes, and It’s Not Going to End Well: Making things illegal tends to make them more dangerous

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