Yeah, while the Smileys are welcomed, and accurately represent the sentiment of those who prefer to stay on the conservative side of the diketone-gate… To be totally honest, seeing all the Smileys being used with direct correlation to diketone-free is borderline infuriating!!
When D/A/AP is removed, 9 times out of 10 the flavor turns to “SUCK” in my experience. IMO, the largest part of what makes vaping work is the excellent flavor. At the very least, it’s what keeps me coming back for more. If you think some folks swore off of flavors due to fading fast, you should’ve seen how fast I swore off of the SHIT that was Butyric Acid (eg: v2 and DX flavors).
@mikser I think it would be in everyone’s best interests if you leveled the playing field a bit if you changed the Smileys to a color code (like was done with the LorAnn list). At least yellow is not nearly as inflammatory (at least to me) yet still represents the “caution” that some folks feel is warranted. I think everyone can/would agree that Red could be used without controversy for flavors that contain oils, and sugars/syrups…
If I read, and understood you correctly, this list is meant to serve the entire community, not just one side’s view. If I’m wrong, then that’s fine.
Though perhaps the side in support of D/A/AP remaining untouched (read as: the Flavor First crowd) should have a thread dedicated solely on support of companies and flavors that remain true to taste?!
I agree to some point with you. The thread is meant for entire community, but we probably agree that those who are concerned about diketones will find it much more useful.
For you taste is the only priority and you do not even think about amounts of diketones, while for diketone concerned vapers DAAP is the priority. You check this page more out of curiosity than need, while they check this page more often since these info can’t be found on one place anywhere else.
But i agree colors can be changed. I would keep smileys, but i would change the red icon when speaking about DAAP levels and replace it with neutral (this one ) + i would keep the red one for something bad, no transparency and similar). What do you think?
Oh, I do think about them. I’m not just in agreement with the idea that “diketones = bad” which is what seems to be the deciding factor in the way this is laid out.
For starters, it hasn’t even been shown/proven to be harmful, but a minor outcry and unfounded fear-mongering has already lead to a shit-load of flavors being “voluntarily removed” due to public perception. Without even having proof that there’s justification for the fear. Companies were more afraid of losing the almighty dollar than they were in trying to wait on the scientific data to come in.
It’s all mobs and pitchforks IMO, and as a result, products that could be perfectly safe at these levels are being altered before even having any data in, and that just rubs me raw. No one’s working in a damned popcorn factory here. And even then, it was a minor outlying instance. But no, folks went batshit crazy, and companies were… You know what… Never mind.
All I’m trying to say is, try and keep it balanced and unbiased, and publish strictly facts. Folks can make up their own minds as to what’s acceptable/suitable for their needs, and everyone can be happy! Both sides views should be respected IMO, as everyone should have a choice as to how they decide to approach it, since it’s what they’re putting into their body.
I think the concept of what you’re trying to do is quite admirable! And I still support it. I just think it needs some continued refinement, and it’s in that spirit that I’m even “critiquing” it. Like you say, transparency and a clearer understanding is the goal for many of us. It’s the facts that should be the baseline. Where we individually decide to go from there, is secondary.
Hmmm. I’ve been thinking hard and then not really. But Ive seen some of the comments and just say hmmm.
So just some random points…or expressions not to put anyone out or ect.
I think it’s good to have a post/thread that helps those who are trying to avoid the unknown chemicals.
Does it represent the whole community. Hell no. Pull the panities out of the bunch, get some gold bond for the sweaty sack, and ect. Accept that many want to avoid these chemicals to the best of our abilities. (Includes me) Smiley face for everyone. We shouldn’t speak down to those folks…because you are saying it to folks like me for example.
Can recipies be made without these chemicals and still taste good. Hell ya! Can everything be made? Maybe not…but as always, use the tools you got to make the best darn thing. There are plenty of mixes that are great without and mixes that would do better (for example) with yellow cake FW…but it’s a choice.
My thought is that it sucks to be anyone who can’t find joy in mixes free of some or all of the unknow chemicals.
My thoughts go on and on. But should stop. Just really wanted to say that before we bash we should think of the bigger picture. Is there a lot of bs out there? Yes. But is a lot of bs because it’s unknown…yes. No one can really for sure say what is really safe or not safe…but one could say less is safer…the question is if we are replacing one chemical with another is it any safer and that answer is also not 100% known.
This rambling blurb full of grammar errors was brought to you by my lunch…one hard boiled egg, vanilla Greek yogurt with a ground up flax seed/coconut ect blend.
Well, hrm. Since it was intended for the community as a whole…that’s why I was trying to suggest keeping it strictly fact based. That way it avoids one side or the other getting their panties in a bunch as you put it.
My frustration showed, but I tried to keep it contained to the subject, and not at an individual.
I accepted long ago that some folks want to avoid them **which I thought was clearly implied ** when I said I think everyone has the right to choose what they put into their own bodies. Hell, I was one of the ones trying to avoid DAAP in the early months of DIY. Until I found the cause for the unpleasant taste.
I wasn’t speaking down to him. Simply trying to state that the smilies don’t represent both sides, and hoping that if it’s truly meant to be community oriented, then present it more from a factual standpoint, and then we can have our own “discussion groups” (in separate threads) for how to apply what each group feels applies to them.
Much like the same reason I don’t go into certain threads if I know it’s going to cause issues (for me or them), I wouldn’t be in this one if I took it as strictly a “we want to avoid diketones” thread, especially given it mentions oils, sugars, syrups, etc. because I’m not interested in trolling, or simply stirring shit up just for the sake of controversy. There are aspects that I’d like to gleen from this as well.
I’m sorry for letting the frustration through (and FWIW, I rewrote that several times before hitting send, as I could tell, I was veering off track, but that’s why I hit the brakes). I’m just concerned that new vapers are going to see one sided information, and given the manner of presentation (as a “total package” resource), assume that it’s “the community consensus”. And subsequently, the as-of-yet, unfounded and fear-based misinformation is only going to continue to be perpetuated and ingrained into the minds of new DIYers.
Bare in mind, I agree with you on the aspect of no one knows yet, which chemicals are safe or not, and up to what points!! I’m simply trying to say if it’s limited to being fact based, everyone wins.
I don’t want this thread to turn into a “are Diketone Bad for you?” I’m really not trying to start an argument with you either, I think we all want at the truth.
Toxicology studies have shown that vapors from heated butter flavorings can cause damage to airways in animals (Hubbs et al, 2002). Studies in both rats and mice demonstrate that the cells lining the airways can be damaged by inhaling diacetyl vapors as a single agent exposure in both acute and subchronic studies (Hubbs et al. 2008; Morgan et al. 2008). In mice, aspiration of diacetyl alone caused a pattern of injury that replicates some of the features of human obliterative bronchiolitis (Morgan et al. 2008). These findings support the hypothesis that diacetyl vapors are an inhalation hazard in the workplace. Also, a study from the Netherlands shows that chemical workers in a plant that manufactured diacetyl developed the same type of lung disease as microwave popcorn workers (van Rooy et al. 2007 and 2009). These chemical workers had less complicated exposures than microwave popcorn workers. Overall, current evidence points to diacetyl as one agent that can cause flavorings-related lung disease. Other flavoring ingredients may also play a role.
I’m not a Dr. or chemist, so take this for what it’s worth (nothing).
I don’t care if other people want to use flavorings with diketones. But, I spent a week of my life trying to understand if they were bad for me and I concluded, YES.
Wow
he did post this somewhere else.
Hi all/… Never posted here. but i feel thi stoopic is important and I want to share some thoughts on the poster and how this thread went on vapingunderground.
The OP did not do much research as shown with RF
originally saying they did not provide testing results, when a 5 year old could see they did.
He claims to be interested in transparency yet refuses to tell the full truth in his image about FA, They do provide information on acetoin. There are no test results published for it for 2 reasons. The flavors that contain it arenot recommended for vaping by FA, so since these test results are all about vaping…no need to test those. Acetoin has to be added in to the flavoring for it to be there, since they don’t add it…no need to test for it.
Fa has been on the forefront of this issue and has the most comprehensive testing available of how vaping effects actual lung tissue compared to smoking. The clearstream testing goes way beyond anything a test for DA/AP or acetoin will ever show
Yet this little star system puts them on the same level of FW who has been caught lying in the past. "
Other info he has incorrect is
wonder flavors says on every flavor it MAY contain Diacetyl and on their website it says they are working to provide more specific info in the future
german flavors specifically states they do not use Diacetyl yet the OP says they give no public testing reports so you should avoid if you care about Diketones with no information to back that up.
also one should note the thread title. FA is the first company listed. WHY when his original post only gave them 2 stars??? .The orginal post had FW at 3 stars above FA even though many know FW lied about their DA/AP content in the past. Also the current version has DEL and FW at 3 stars with FA but FW and DEL say they only give out basic info. The OP has an issue with FA that is clear. With so much misinformation and out right lies through the course of this thread and the one on vaping underground about FA and omitted information that is so easy to find, such as the truth about RF which he finally admitted to, I and others have come to the conclusion that there is a hidden agenda by the OP.
Plus theres the statement he makes about Molinberry having the lowest acetoin in the industry??? How can you get lower then 0 which many companies like FA,RF etc have. That statement is completely incorrect, a lie, biased and subjective.
Some of his original data was correct, Some was not Most of the incorrect data was easy to find the correct data, so his research skills are seriously lacking or the data was misrepresented for a reason.
I would not trust the OP’s data. and encourage everyone to do a little research yourself if you rare truly interested in this
@matto169 I very much appreciate you taking the time and interest in sharing your VU insights and opinion with us!
Like I said, way back in post 6:
I think if that were done, it’d be easier to either “back up” any such posted data, but it would also allow follow-ups to suggest amendments, as well as provide for users sharing relevant updates to assist in keeping the data current.
As it stands, for me anyways, without such (cited links to supporting data or “official company statements”, as one would in a research paper/project) it’s hard for me to take it as much more than what it is in it’s current form: a personal “collected works” that’s been made public. Though I’ve had hopes of it being molded and refined into something useful for everyone, from every viewpoint. Since that’s what I perceived the original intent to be.
At the moment though, I’m thinking I’ll just unsub from this thread, and maybe revisit it in the future, and see where the rest of the community takes it.
I’ve got faith in our community to help. The question in my mind is, how the OP decides to proceed from here.
Based on the OP’s posting history here, and after doing a little reading, I urge all here to do their own research. Take the advice of trusted individuals. Personally my trust in the OP is non-existent.
Just to be clear as my intentions
I dont normally follow someone form forum to forum
but this is a serious topic to many. There is lots of debate and discussions out there on this subject
forums like this and vaping underground get very very high google search results when you search anything vaping related, so this thread and teh VU thread are going to be seen by people who dont post and just lurk form site to site. Many of those people read the first post or so and then their eyes glaze over and miss important info
I could tell just looking at the first post it was clearly MISREPRESENTING FACTS about many companies,
I just want to make sure people are aware that all the facts are not in the original post, there is much more toknow about these companies
And being an avid mixer with FA and RF It appalls me to see misinformation about them. Both companies are top notch in terms of transparency which is what this thread is suppose to be about
FYI if you want a brownie flavor - RF brownie tastes just like momma’s spoon when she was done mixing.
this isnt a diatribe on the newest mod or tank etc.this info could be used to help determine health concerns and I just want people to know the original post is not accurate and there is more to the story, so do your own research and don’t rely on this thread or any to be the ultimate answer guide and resource for you
I’m thoroughly confused – I googled the papers on Diketones and all I found in connection with vaping was a side-bar noting that dicetyl has been separately linked with popcorn lung – follow that path to papers on diacetyl and, I’m going to be honest, for most all of these, I don’t even understand what the abstracts mean. I can parrot the phrases back, but they’re Greek to me. As for one that was straight-up inhalation based, it found in rats. . . " Bronchi were affected at diacetyl concentrations of 294.6 ppm or greater; the trachea and larynx were affected at diacetyl concentrations of 224 ppm or greater. " Then there’s this from 2006 – “A direct effect on the respiratory epithelium with the disorganised fibrotic repair appears most likely as the underlying mechanism. Current data suggest that diacetyl is the agent responsible, although it is possible that diacetyl is simply a marker for another causative agent.” And for those two I at least think I know what that means, and what it implies, which is basically “Not enough information”.
So far as I can tell there’s just no real information on this, at least that a layman can get a handle on, so I’m going to ignore it.
But flavours with diketones taste better you say? I’ma have to investigate that
Basically its this
8 ish people died form brochial obliterates and that was linked to inhaling the powder diactyl or however its spelled. this is what makes microwave popcorn taste buttery
DA/AP is what makes some flavors taste buttery, cream, and basically atsty to some degree for many.
so with the above cases and some research and stuff about rats, many vapors felt that DA/AP being vaporized and inhaled could be a health concern.
IS IT?
possibly it is. My opinion- why wait for someone to die form vaping to find out it is? just dont use DA/AP period or as little as possible
now acetoin was used as a substitute for AP to keep the flavor sort of the same but many were concerned it was just as bad as DA/AP, for various reasons, but I am not aware of any actual data proving one way or the other. But since the vaping community decided Acetoin may be an issue as well some companies decided not to use it or reduce it as well
The basic fact is WE DONT KNOW if DA/AP or acetoin is bad to vape.
IT could be
it could not be
or it could be there are certain levels where it is ok
WE just really don’t know for sure
But enough research exists to SUGGEST these things MAY pose a health concern. The research at least makes some question the need to determine if these things are a health concern, where as something like PG we know should not be a health concern since it was aersolized in hospitals for years and was inhaled by hospital workers and nothing has been linked back to that.
Since for many vaping is a form of HARM REDUCTION then lets continue the HARM REDUCTION and eliminate additives that MAY cause a health concern or at least make people aware that you may be inhaling something that MAY cause a health concern and let you decide for yourself.
Now i personally look at the clearstream data by FA and go WOW!!!
They are actually testing their flavors on human tissue and showing the results versus a cigarette.
SO even if as the OP claims FA Doesn’t tell you if Acetoin is in the flavor (WHICH BTW THEY DO- Any vaping flavor by FA does not contain acetoin), and if it did actually contain acetoin then acetoin does significantly less damage to human lung tissue then a cigarette does in fact all FA vaping flavors do so little damage to human tissue in comparison to a cigarette it boggles the mind how anyone can not see the harm reduction vaping has over smoking.
Bottom line.
DA/AP and Acetoin have caused some concern in the vaping industry. NO data proves one way or the other the harm these can do to humans by vaping, but enough evidence does exist to ask the question if these things do pose a health risk. NOONE at this time can answer the questions. Some choose to err on the side of caution while others do not. Its a personal choice. A choice you do not get by smoking because BT does not tell you how much or what is in a cigarette and its effect on your body. However many flavor companies are actively removing, have removed, or reduced the amount of these things in their flavorings
I just discovered something else to anyone still thinking this information is TRANSPARENT or about transparency.
In this thread someone posted a photo showing that RF does publish their data, 18 days ago form today
walt repsonded the next day and this information on this thread was updated to reflect that the same day
YET the OP waited 15 more days until I posted a similar photo in the VU thread to update the info there and when he did he acted like it was the first time he heard of it.
So there is something seriously amiss with the OP , his data, and his actions
Yeah, the further background to why people are so hyped about taking sides just tells me to write the entire controversy off as irrelevant. Yes it could matter, but there’s no meaningful evidence. If it does turn out to be an issue, there will be evidence, and here’s the rub – You don’t really have a choice as to whether or not to be a guinea pig if you vape. They can’t actively test this on live subjects, so they’ll rely on reviews for their studies, and possibly some case-studies. None of which is nearly as informative as one would like really.
In the meantime, I see no reason to try and get the producers to remove diketones, but neither any reason to begrudge them hopping on the bandwagon purely for profit considerations. It’s just the way things are really.
Or, in other words, there’s no present information that should lead one to care.
I am sorry, but i have to answer this post in details, so everyone can see what this guy is trying to do. He already did this at VU and now he’s trying to do it here as well. You’ll be able to check for yourself how manipulative he is and if anyone, then he has a hidden agenda. It will be easy to understand, but i have to go word by word.
Sometimes the most obvious things stay hidden from our eyes (google search didn’t provide any info since their diketone levels are published on pics; this is not an excuse, just trying to explain what happened). I asked for this information on this forum (post#48; Jul 13th) and unfortunately no one enlightened me (probably because it is so obvious, but i really didn’t see that). Finally Matt did for which i am grateful and i updated the info about RF within three hours same day. I feel ashamed for this, but these things happen, when you are collecting information that weren’t collected yet before. That’s why i am asking for your help; if you see a mistake, misinformation or some new findings, then share those please. Together we can make all the information in this thread much better and updated properly).
(1) Not true: they published testing reports about D and AP, but they do not provide any information about Acetoin publicly (2) Not true: this is not a fact, they never said this publicly. If this info can be found anywhere on their website, then please provide that proof. (3) Not true: ridiculous statement. Zero percents is a testing result, same as any other. (4) Not true: keep in mind that FA did publish test results that shows zero levels of D/AP which denies everything what OP says here.
Just think about this objectively. FA did provide testing results of D-AP when levels of those were zero (no D-AP found), but they wouldn’t want to provide Acetoin testing results if those were zero? I mean really? Why would a company want to hide an information that there is no Acetoin in any of their flavors? That would be strange, especially since Acetoin levels are present in some flavors of any other large DIY manufacturer who have published their testing results (they could claim that they are the only DAAP free company proven with test results). But they didn’t (yet) and when they will i will update those info immediately.
I gave a very clear and positive information about ClearStream in the FA information text, but this is not in the focus of this thread (but a transparency of D-A-AP levels is).
I wrote that under FW info, right? So one can use those FW info with caution. But we also have to rely on the facts in the present time, not on the past and not on the future and at this very moment FA did transparently provide information about 2 out of 3 ingredients that are part of this thread ; they did provide D-AP, not D-A-AP info.
Other info he has incorrect is
wonder flavors says on every flavor it MAY contain Diacetyl and on their website it says they are working to provide more specific info in the future
Not enough information. For 1 star a company has to publish the information which particular flavors may contain D-A-AP, so diketone concerned vaper may choose a particular diketone-free flavor.
In the second part of the sentence OP contradicts what he is saying in the first part. Saying that D is not present is not the same as releasing public testing reports of D,A and AP. Again, they too don’t give enough information for vaper who is concerned about D-A-AP based on which he may choose a liquid.
This just shows how desperate OP is in trying to bash findings in this thread. When he can’t find anything to support his claims, he brings out what company, by his opinion, should be placed first, second etc - in the name of the thread. I mean REALLY?
Not true again. Numbers of MB testing reports show that their Acetoin levels are the lowest so far. FA did not provide any testing of acetoin and RF contain more Acetoin in their flavors (low levels, but still more than MB) - you can find those info above. I will update any info immediately when OP or someone else shows me test results showing even lower levels of A, but until then this is another desperate try of the OP to bash this thread based only by his opinion and not supported by any proofs.
Some of his original data was correct, Some was not Most of the incorrect data was easy to find the correct data, so his research skills are seriously lacking or the data was misrepresented for a reason.
I would not trust the OP’s data. and encourage everyone to do a little research yourself if you rare truly interested in this
Those who work sometimes make mistakes. Information of so many companies and so many flavors are not very easy to find and compare. When new findings were presented (supported on facts = public information of the company), then i updated those info within the same day. I can openly say that a few mistakes have been made, but i am glad about those new findings since those make information in this thread even better and updated, which is the only thing important.
Kindly note: I had to copy-paste all his post so readers can see that there are only empty accusations and personal opinion, but ZERO proofs for any of his claims.
We may expect several more posts of this OP and many new insinuations and i won’t go on that level and explaining FACTS every single time. I can’t do anything to prevent empty claims, so it seems readers will have to either believe his ‘out of his head’ statements and his ‘personal opinion’ OR you will be checking things based on the facts by yourself (i provide all important links above so you can get a true information for yourself, not misleading information). Thx for reading.
This thread is about transparency and based on publicly available information about D-A-AP levels and not how much one ‘trusts’ any company. To make it useful and unbiased we have to treat all companies equally. That is the only way to make any comparison meaningful and information not misleading or manipulative. It is based on facts = what’s officially published by companies on their websites and NOT what individual opinion is or what a certain company’s fan-club believes.
This thread is NOT about
-your or my favorite companies
-whether diketones are safe or not (there are numerous threads elsewhere)
-any info received by emails or support (what’s been published on websites matters; there are some more liabilities when information is published publicly)
All the above is dividing vapers while transparency should be in every vaper’s interest, right?
Note that any information in this thread is not final; there may be mistakes and when new information is found, then info above will be changed based on new findings. I said this a couple of times and i will say it again – please help make this information more useful and more transparent; if you have any other information that is publicly released about DAAP levels about these or other companies and their flavors, then please share it.
If you have just an opinion or if you want to share a ‘public truth’ or if you are part of a fan club of a certain company or otherwise biased, then your contribution is welcome as well, but please do realize that is just that - your opinion, if it’s not based on facts. And your opinion cannot be included into D-A-AP transparency report or any comparison. It’s just your opinion.
It seems some would want from me to present manipulative information which is not based on facts = on publicly released information, but they want me to twist the comparison in favor of their favorite companies. I can’t do that; i am not involved in any vaping business and that is why i believe this is the most useful thread for diketone-concerned vapers ever (precisely because all is shown based on facts = publicly released info only).
I should probably mention how ratings are delivered. The number of stars is delivered based on how useful the information about DAAP levels is for someone who is diketone concerned.
4 stars: a manufacturer gives all the information about D-A-AP levels in their flavorings (so those who are concerned about those levels, may find all the information)
3 stars: a manufacturer gives incomplete information about D-A-AP levels in their flavors (FA for example gives all the information about D-AP, but not about D-A-AP)
2 stars: a manufacturer provides limited information (publicly released testing reports of majority of their flavors, but no information about flavors where levels of diketones are high).
1 star: a manufacturer publishes information which particular flavors may contain D-A-AP without any numbers, so diketone concerned vaper may avoid those.
0 stars: when there is not enough information about levels of DAAP, so customer cannot know whether a certain flavor of that particular company has some D-A-AP or not.
.
I should explicitly say that i am not a diketone gestapo and this is not i-hate-diketones thread (it is about transparency). I am using many flavors with diketones and hardly any of my mixes is DAAP free. Many of those flavors i will buy again. What i do wish is that more companies would become more transparent about the ingredients in their flavors and stop hiding things / ignoring their customers. A flavor full of diketones may not be damaging at all, but the attitude of hiding things and non-transparency is always poisonous (not just for individuals, but for the whole industry, for the public opinion, for the regulators, for those who fear, etc, not just in vaping industry, but overall).
) + i would keep the red one for something bad, no transparency and similar). What do you think?
Smiley face for everyone. We shouldn’t speak down to those folks…because you are saying it to folks like me for example.
