Diketones, Oils, Sugars, GMO – All-in-one page: FA, TPA, FLV, CAP, FW, LB, etc

E-liquids Flavors
102

Nikser you are a liar
you have been provided plenty of proof
Thank you for chatting with us. Please find your chat transcript below.

FlavourArt / Supporto

Date: 2017-07-26

Name: matt
Email: nunyabusiness

Chat reference number: 23187

| 26.07.2017 15:14:57 | matt: do your flavors contain acetoin
| 26.07.2017 15:16:32 | Elena: Hello matt, my name is Elena, how may I help you?
| 26.07.2017 15:16:49 | matt: do any of your flavors for vaping contain acetoin
| 26.07.2017 15:18:11 | Elena: most our flavours do not contain acetoin
| 26.07.2017 15:18:37 | Elena: if they do it is mentioned in the description below
| 26.07.2017 15:19:10 | matt: can you give me an example of a flavor that does contain acetoin
| 26.07.2017 15:19:39 | Elena: for example milk flavour contain acetoin
| 26.07.2017 15:20:05 | Elena: also butter
| 26.07.2017 15:20:12 | Elena: and roasted chicken
| 26.07.2017 15:20:26 | matt: are these flavors recommended for vaping?
| 26.07.2017 15:20:47 | Elena: no , they are not indicated for vaping
| 26.07.2017 15:21:06 | matt: ok thank you
| 26.07.2017 15:21:10 | Elena: we have 400 different flavours and just 20 are not indicated
| 26.07.2017 15:21:24 | matt: can you email me a transcription of this chat
| 26.07.2017 15:22:16 | Elena: the ones with acetoin and ones oil soluble
|
There is the same transcrfipt from me ad a rep at FA
Says right there about Acetoin

Here is a cut and paste drectly form this link
http://www.flavourart.co.uk/faqs.html

We are often asked if our flavourings contain various chemicals so the text below should hopefully answer them. The condition that can be caused by inhalation of Diacetyl and/or related Diketones is commonly referred to as ‘Popcorn lung’ (bronchiolitis obliterans) and was first highlighted in the US in facilities where Popcorn was being mass-produced. It is not lung cancer but it is a very painful and debilitating condition. Even though the amounts inhaled when vaping (miniscule) are unlikely to cause any such problems, many manufacturers have now removed Diacetyl from the products that contained them. FlavourArt Italy were the first manufacturer to respond to the Diacetyl issue and began removal of Diacetyl and all related Diketones in November 2010. There are a few flavours they produce that still contain such ingredients as they are necessary for the flavours which are specifically for food use. They are in a separate ‘Kitchen’ section on the FlavourArt Italy website and carry appropriate warnings regarding their use. None of the flavours offered on the FA UK website contain Diacetyl or related Diketones, including Acetoin** and Acetyl Propionyl. FlavourArt flavours do not contain alcohol, sugars, protein, genetically modified ingredients, animal ingredients of any kind, preservatives, caffeine, sweeteners or colours. They are all gluten and peanut free, suitable for diabetics, vegetarian and vegans. The residual issue is that some people insist on ‘natural’, ‘organic’, or whatever other terms might be used to define flavours derived directly from the original product, rather than those ‘artificial’ flavours recreated by a flavorist. Removing Diacetyl from a ‘natural’ flavour is difficult and prohibitively expensive; removing it from an ‘artificial’ flavour is relatively simple, you just don’t add it when creating the flavour. Can you use the concentrates with nut allergies? We are not aware of any contra evidence in respect of our nut flavours; the cause of allergic reactions is believed by scientists to be in the nut protein, which is not used in flavour manufacture.

Says pretty clearly if its recommended by them for vaping it DOES NOT CONTAIN ACETOIN

You have been shown this already and you refuse to accept truth

You are an out right liar. You were shown 2 weeks before I showed you RF publishes its data
Walt communicated with you and NO UPDATE on the VU thread about that information
You are a liar

I will not allow you to continue to lie to this community

AND lets just get this straight
If any of the FA vaping flavors did contain ACETOIN which they do not, BUT IF THEY DID
the clerstream data shows they do not increase the toxity to human cells since the results for a creamy flavor which one would suspect to comatin Acetoin has about the same results as a fruit flavor that would not contain it.

YOu dont get it do you about Acetoin. FA artificial manufacturers their flavors. They dont get an orange and extract flavors, they chemically recreate the flavor of an orange. They know ever chemical and compound in every single flavor. They know if the put Acetoin in something. Why in the world would you test for something you didnt put in there. Where as according to my recollection from over a year or so ago when I first looked into this , DA/AP can be formed while creating the flavors without actually adding it in.

So just stop lying about FA stop misrepresenting your info, Better yet delete the OP in both threads so noone accidentally uses your lies to make a health related decision

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103

oh look a lie
you are a just a liar
post #27 clearly shows you the photo and explains it

and i did the same thing 2 weeks later on VU and you acted like it was the first time you ever saw it

just stop. You have less then 0 credibility with most of the community at this point. Your data is flawed skewed biased and WRONG. Get over it. You failed at whatever you were attempting to do. Delete your OPs in all threads and move on

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104

Matt, you’re making fun of yourself.

What any support says isn’t important for this thread; only what companies officially publish is. But more importantly…
…the link based on which you focused your manipulation this time is from FA distributor and NOT from FA company. They say this clearly on a link you posted and i assume you have read that. Copy-paste:

FAUK is run by me, John Chamley, who has spent 6 years working in this industry, and Bethany, my eldest daughter and co-Director who joined the company in 2013. We offer quality service, passion, a wealth of knowledge, and integrity, along with an unswerving committment to smoking harm reduction. We have partnered with FlavourArt Italy for four years and are their main UK Distributor.
.

FA have probably hundreds of resellers and distributors and as said before – for this thread important is only what company says or publishes, not what their distributors or resellers do.

And if you then check the official FA website, then you can’t find any single information about any Acetoin testings or any claim that all of their flavors are Acetoin free.

Also, you are constantly throwing my two mistakes into my face to show how manipulative i am, but then you yourself make a dozen of similar mistakes by your unsupported claims… I fixed my two mistakes immediately and showed an appreciation to those who helped. And you? Will you be able to swallow your pride and stop downgrading this thread based on your personal opinion or revenge? Or at least offer some useful information based on facts? Readers are intelligent, don’t underestimate them.

106

Hey fellas, a lot of great info but can we keep finger pointing and name calling to a minimum, please?

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107

Something posted on teh UK distributor website must comply with the truth from the manufacturer. The UK distributor can not say the FA flavors it sells do not contain acetoin if they do. Because then you see if FA knows their distributor is making false claims and does not do anything and continues to sell them their product then FA becomes Liable as well
FAUK can not make a false claim bout FA products like that. A country wide distributorship is a legal agreement between a manufacturer and the distributor, If the distributor makes the claim or statement it is the same as if the manufacturer did.

SInce FAUK makes its living off one manufacturer you bet their butts they are not going to make false claims about that manufacturer. SO FAUK saying it publically is the same legally as FAIT saying it publically

You just want to find fault

I mean id like to know if there is rat urine in CAP. Let me look at their website, well it doesn’t specifically say that their flavors do not contain rat urine and they do not publish any data to prove they have tested for rat urine in their flavors, therefore the flavors may and probably do contain rat urine. so if you are concerned about vaping rat urine then you should avoid CAP.

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108

i apologize if I have broken any forum rules. I do not see calling something that is a lie a problem nor someone telling the lie a liar. But if that is against forum etiquette and rules here I will refrain and apologize to the forum community for my behavior
Miksner has been given tons of information here and on VU and refuses to use his eyes and see the same thing others see

I do not want false information about any flavor company published that is not accurate when it comes to what they put into their ingredients and this thread absolutely is doing that in the OP, which may mislead vistors to your forum and if they find out they they received false information in one thread then they may not find themselves able to trust and information in other threads which may be accurate.

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109

There’s a guy in Texas having to continue paying child support after DNA tests prove he is not even the father.

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110

Honestly i havent had time to read the entire thread, im just getting out of bed after being sick and im trying to get caught up. We do allow respectful discourse, everyone disagrees from time to time and we understand that. Ive read several of the posts and while they were mostly within the rules a couple are pushing it a bit so i thought id give a friendly reminder. As soon as my brain stops pounding ill review the rest of the thread.

When one sees something as a direct lie simply flag the post as it makes it easier for us, there are a lot of posts on a daily basis and we cant read them all. This is where we rely on our wonderful community.

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Unfortunately the way the government looks at it is if his name is on the birth certificate then he is the father, he needs to get it amended.

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112

The information is useful, people should be free to make their own interpretation of reliability and how much of a concern they want to have over these things. What I hate to see is this weenie measuring contest of.
~ you LIE
~ No YOU LIE
~ NO YOU!

And bringing what appears to be VU baggage over to ELR.

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113

That’s it @Mizzz_Z_Hobbit, you hit the nail, squarely on the head.:thinking:

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114

At this point in time, my personal opinion is there are substantial flaws on “both sides” of this coin that’s come rolling in the open door of ELR.

For one, speaking strictly from a USA legal POV, as many people know, email can and does stand up in a court of law (with rare exceptions, ie: national security, etc). And since a company can (and has been) be held legally liable for something that one of their representatives say on the company’s behalf, then I see no reason whatsoever to try and state, in essence, "that’s not acceptable because it’s not posted on the site for everyone who has Internet, and can read, to see.

So I feel there’s some additional issues in the process of what’s being considered and/or dismissed as “acceptable criteria” by Mikser, aside from my wish to see a link to each and every assertion in such a compiled resource.

While I’m inclined to agree (given the direction things have turned, in principle, I disagree from the aspect of “I would hope to receive an open welcome” were I to visit any other such community, and explain (and link to) a preexisting situation (especially one that’s practically identical) such as this. I think it’s a good premise that while there’s intrinsic (usually subtle) differences between vaping forums, we all should be United when it comes to things that affect all of us, as vapers.

The hitch in the giddy-up here is (baggage-wise) that Matto169 was obviously the most incensed by the perceived slight to FA. That doesn’t bode well for me. As it seems to almost have become a driving force for the rest. I allow a bit of leeway though, because I could easily appear as such (biased towards only D/A/AP flavors) to those who don’t really know me, or how I regard what’s most important in aspects such as these. So I’m trying to extend the same courtesy to Matto169, as I don’t know him well enough to know where his heart lies, regardless of the obvious extent of frustration that he’s obviously let build up.
For the record: I use whatever tastes the best. Whether it has one or all components (D/A/AP), or none of them. Bottom line, it’s still falling under harm reduction for this grown man.

@Matto169: breathe man. You’ve made your point! :wink: But you’re also appearing to go off the rails a bit from being too emotionally charged.

@Mikser: you asked for advice from the community. They’ve given some good advice, and points of reference. Either accept it and be willing to apply it, or consider amending your “objective” in post #1, as to me, it strikes me as a bit disingenuous when you start getting TOO selective as to what’s admissible, and what’s not. So you appear going to the same extreme (only in the opposite direction). Take a breath, and really think about how you want to present your concerns.

You already know my personal thoughts from PM, and that hasn’t changed. But I’ll recap here: drop the Smileys, drop the stars, and just post hard data. Anything less than legally acceptable facts, with 100% links to each and every fact, leaves it remaining squarely in the realm of (or “category”, if you’d prefer) Mikser’s personal viewpoint, that may be shared by others. With links backing everything up, there’s no one to offend, and no one to argue with. Just data. And the community will gladly help in keeping those links up to date, the instant an update comes out!! I mean seriously have you seen how fast everyone shares good deals, or links on the FDA, or live videos (Aaron Bieber just did)?? All you have to do is drop the personal viewpoint, if you want an all inclusive resource for everyone, that promotes honesty and transparency among manufacturers.

Best to all.

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115

WOW i just read this entire thread , and now my head is pounding and i have to go to bed but before i shut my eyes im going to go vape some FA cream whipped SF mix just for the fun of it , and in the morning my lungs will be just fine … at least better than if i smoked a cigarette … thats why i started vaping because its better than smoking imo all a thread like this does is helps those who are against vaping , which im sure the anti vape people do lurk and will use these concerns in the future if not now , i wont comment or read anymore on this thread because the concern of diketones doesnt exist for me .

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This thread is about transparency. This thread is not about what is relevant by law or about catching all missing parts at all costs in hidden places, but it is primarily about finding out whether a company is transparent or not. Only their publicly released information can show that, not their email, FB or chat support.

If a company can’t find benefits of sharing information with their consumers publicly, then a message is clear = we don’t want any transparency, we don’t want to show what you are vaping and since the law doesn’t force us to reveal any information to you, we won’t do that.

There are some other good reasons not to rely on support. Support is sometimes good and bad, information relevant or not, but most importantly a thread gets downgraded and biased too quickly when we fall into a trap ‘they told me, so you have to believe me’.

Chat conversations may also be manipulated, but more importantly copy-pasting chats may be completely misleading after a while. Imagine posting a copy of conversation today and that chat info will stay on forum unchanged for years. Readers will be taking it for granted, not knowing that company changed those info long time ago and might be completely misleading. Contrary, by relying on the publicly released info and usually provided links, readers may find relevant information or any changes quickly (and maybe even help update this thread accordingly). To keep information on this thread as objective as possible it is totally needed to be based on publicly released information only, so this will stay.

Smileys deliver good visional information and often simplify a quick review. They are very handy representation of what’s good and bad, they are convenient and help make text more readable (plain text is boring, especially in long articles, right?). The thread is meant for readers, so i believe it is cool to keep smileys. But i will add a third neutral smiley for texts about diketones.

Stars. Comparison tables are very good visual information and rating systems support the information delivered – it makes the info more readable, easy to follow and to compare. Rating systems work and visual elements help understanding. I don’t believe removing stars / ratings would help a diketone concerned vaper and it definitely wouldn’t help make companies be more transparent (after all, those two are prime reasons of this thread). I want to keep the information about transparency very explicit, visible and easy to read.

Post hard data only: Vapers can find hard data only by themselves by checking those websites. This thread is helping them understand and compare things. I’ll show with some examples what hard data only mean:

  • presenting numbers like companies do. For amount of Acetoin this would mean (example, not true numbers here): 680ppm for FLV, >=1% for TPA and 25ppm per mixed liquid for RF. See, 95%+ vapors wouldn’t know how to actually compare these numbers. Using same format is needed to make useful info.
  • Next thing is no additional text for companies: for RF this would mean no mentioning that they have clear info about diketones on their website and that Walt is here or for MB that they have the lowest amount of Acetoin in their flavors. These information are useful for vapers/readers and may help them get better information
  • For FA i could only copy-paste their saying that their flavors don’t contain Diacetyl and/or any related diketones. 95% of users don’t know that Acetoin is not a Di-Ketone, but only Ketone, which means their information is correct, but that doesn’t mean that their flavors are DAAP free, but only DAP free. They may get wrong opinion about flavors and this thread may help them understand what are they buying/using. Sometimes getting a correct info isn’t that easy.
  • Data only would mean no main table which is most important imo for any compare.
  • It would definitely not be helpful for transparency and following two main goals of this thread

What i can do is to review the main post, make a few corrections and mention more often what is my personal opinion. But that’s all. Note that this thread is meant for readers, not for the statistics.

I would wish this thread to be helpful for all, but this can never really happen, right? Some hate seeing their favorite company not on the top, some hate any mentioning of diketones, some hate more transparency for some reason and some would want it disappear permanently for some reason. But some wish precisely those information which are hard to find elsewhere.

I can approach to your view somewhere, but not on the expense of making the information of this thread less visible, less readable, less informing. As said, this thread is primarily meant for diketone concerned vapers and for those who care about transparency; those may find information in this thread most useful (while others may find it interesting).

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@Mikser I’m sorry but from what i have read and seen so far in this thread i must say that the content is far from impartial due to how emotionally attached you seem to be.

If this whole thing about Diketones and stuff had been impartial and transparent as you say, the use of smileys as an example would never have been thought of. And the fact that you refuse to remove the smileys and not willing to use something else tells me a whole lot.

I almost feel that this thread should get closed and deleted and after that redone in a better way where the true facts are of importance and not personal opinions and views. And by doing it that way the use of proper research with links to them would be of the essence. To me saying something about something this important, if it should be proven to be unhealthy for people to vape without backing it up with research, proper independent science just makes this whole thing kinda worthless.

And when i say posting links to proper science i am not talking about a study made in 2006 or something, it has to be recent well documented stuff that has some credibility.

As this whole thing is set up right now it is more about fear mongering than it is about trying to enlighten people.

And before anyone say anything about the following link, i know it is posted by a liquid company but the attached links are not made by the company.

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@Norseman, that was a well written blog (article), with references.

I actually have been following his blogs lately. They are, like I said, well written and articulate, (redundant?) Anywho, thanks for posting it.
BTW the redundant part is for me, not the article. Just incase …

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119

I must agree with @Norseman, you seem very emotionally attached to this project of yours, hey if you weren’t you wouldn’t be doing it right? But if you truly want to make something completely transparent you need to remove your opinions and emotions.

You flip flop back and forth, is this your opinion or is it fact, I’m not sure you have decided which direction you want to do this from, on one hand you want transparency, but that transparency has to be done one way according to you, but the companies all do it differently, well the only way it will be standardized is with government intervention unfortunately, don’t worry we will probably get lots of that sooner than any of us would like. You say your average vaperer wont understand most of this stuff, while possibly true this is not a forum of novice vaperes or people that don’t have the drive to understand these things, you keep assuming you know better then everyone and refuse to take any constructive criticism. You keep saying your average vaper wouldn’t know how to read this information. Your average vaper isn’t going to look for it.

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Funny, I actually know how to reasearch and as I meantioned in this thread, that is the ONLY information that can be directly construed as “diketones are bad” I can find. The one other study I could find that I understood well enough to mention (but I don’t think the others were about inhalation dangers…) was a very, very vague reference to damage in rats, which doesn’t tell you anything.

This thread is weird, and maybe I’m not as clever as I think I am but I am having a hell of a time following it. I think the main issue that’s been settled on as an issue is purely about transparency? But there is no consensus on wth that means in this case so that’s not meaningful inofitself either. . .

What I can say is that the original post seems fairly unprofessional, misleading, and not useful in an academic sense. It’s fine if you reformat it to just be an FYI: “These things have diketones, here’s how we know. These things don’t, here’s how we know.” But that’s not what it is, at least not as I read the commentary between the charts and certainly not as I read the conversation that follows.

I’d like it if someone took a purely analytical version of things, threw it up here for people who really do want this info, it’s useful for them and no reason to not be helpful, that’s what forums are for, but to then maybe sticky and lock that topic, and let the arguments stay away from the actual information you know?

Unless this isn’t even about just providing a cheatsheet of helpful information and is itself just an argument about diketones and company transparency and whatnot in which case – I so don’t care about this thread anymore, or anything it represents.

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121

I appreciate your opinions here. Give me a day or two to make some changes.

@Norseman that is a great link. I hope many will read it.
(i would place it in the main post, but i really wish to avoid this thread go in the direction whether diketones are safe or not; there are so many other threads about this already; i’d rather wish to stay focused on what info companies release publicly about diketones in their flavors and compare companies based on that transparency; this is something that can’t be found anywhere else and it may be useful for those who care about this).

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122

I found that rat one too. The sad thing, is that’s about the extent of it. @threeheavens posted a link to an audio file. I believe it was two years old.

I really wasn’t to interested in researching it until I listened to the audio file. Now I AM interested,but there just isn’t enough recent info, on the subject. At least what I could find, I know that’s not saying much. :no_mouth:

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