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Ethyl Maltol : what percentage starts to mute flavors?

Yes that is my question haha. I think I’m extremely sensitive to EM because I use a lot of flavors that contain this and just found this out and it seems like after two weeks these recipes start to mute. So I was wondering if anyone knows the EM threshold before muting starts so I can calculate the amounts in my mixes to keep it under that for further testing on my palate?

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The problem with em imo is that it’s also used as ingredient for flavors, so there’s no exact percentage to answer this question, unless we know every msds sheet of every flavors, and use them for every recipes we mixed.

However, when i used em as sweetener, i found em will mute my mix if i used more than 1% after 2 weeks steep, in a simple recipe of blueberry extra at 6% and em at 1%

I’m sorry my answer is not very scientific.

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but a very good answer , OP just eliminate EM like delltrapp said the problem is on its own it will mute flavors and it gets worse when you add EM to flavors that have it in them … delltrapp you nailed it imo

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Thank you for your input you two! I’m sorry I didn’t elaborate more specifically, I don’t use any “outside” EM in my mixes and I mostly use TPA products although not exclusively usually my mixes contain 1-2 flavors from other vendors, so I usually refer to the CAS contents in the flavors i have on their website and give myself a rough estimate of what it would be from that. problem is I still experience the same muting situation unfortunately and i don’t use high %s most of the time (1%-8%), I just wanted a rough percentage of EM that would start to mute it anyone knows so I can give myself a mix that won’t mute. A couple mixes I made were .0375% and .07% EM per 30ml roughly

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post recipes , id think it would be something other than the EM , are they high in cream / custard flaves too many bakery type flaves fighting each other ? there could be other reasons , i personally havent had a recipe become muted from thw flavors having EM in them its usually a bad combo of flaves or too much cream etc , but if you post the recipes someone can take a look and maybe help you fix issue

Note : i have experianced flavor fade issues , but usually if i use those type of flavors ill have it backed up with something that helps it along the way

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Don’t forget that EM is not the only muting agent used in our flavors, there are a few and they’re often used together (EM, maltol, vanillin, etc). Besides that, there are other things that you have to keep in mind like the volatility of some flavor molecules or flavors that get stronger while steeping and dominate other subtle flavors.
The other day I was vaping a refreshing fruity yogurt mix and after a while the yogurt started to fade away… but that was only because the catalan cream started to steep and dominate the yogurt (and the fruits to a certain extend).

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Really?! I didn’t know vanillin was a muter as well. My recipes are exclusively creams/custards because (I have a problem lol) my recipes that i use are all posted on my page if you want to look. does anyone have a suggestion as to how much cream/custard not to go past in percentage? Also how many flavors should I not go past unless I really know what I’m doing? (Which I’m definitely no Wayne Walker or fresh03 lol)

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Vanilla custards aren’t all loaded with vanillin. They, and many other flavors, may contain hints of vanillin but there’s more going on in custards.
Vanillin will give your overall juice a vanilla note, you can’t layer this in with other flavors. The vanilla flavor from the custard will layer in with the other flavors.

Custard is one of the flavors that some people use a lot of in their recipes (even 10 to 20%). The higher you go, the longer it needs to steep and at those high % we’re talking about several months…

There is no real answer to your question what % can you use, this depends on individual flavors. And most flavor enhancers will have muting effects from a certain %. Sometimes this is what mixers are looking for to kill off sharp notes. If you look around here in the forum threads, youtube, reddit or just google, there is a lot of information about flavor enhancers.

I understand that new mixers have a lot of questions, but it’s hard to come up with sensible answers to questions like

  • what % should I not go above?
  • what’s the max amount of flavors to mix?
  • what % will mute flavors?

All I can suggest is that you read a lot and experiment. Do a lot of SFT, start with low % then build up and find out where the sweet spot is, check the TFA website to look at flavor components to try to understand your flavors better, check how flavors steep over varying time periods and so on.

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Thank you your advice is much appreciated. So the vanillin will just mute out with too much you’re saying and at lower % it will layer and blend over time? Or am I misunderstanding? I apologize for asking again

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Well I was just vaping a fruity juice that I had added 0.50% EM and it’s crap I can’t taste any of the fruit or cream that are in my recipe I am going to throw the EM right in the garbage! That make 2 juices that EM has destroyed

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Don’t worry about asking again :wink: And I’m sorry if I’m not as good in explaining it… here’s an extract from
https://diyordievaping.com/2015/12/15/lets-talk-about-flavor-enhancers-diy-ejuice-tips/

Vanillin

What Vanillin is, is in the name. It’s a single aroma taken straight from the vanilla ingredient. The best way I can describe this tool is thinking it’s like vanilla extract. It adds an overall vanilla flavor to your recipes, just like how vanilla extract adds an overall vanilla flavor to anything you put it in. The difference between vanillin and a vanilla flavoring is that you can’t layer in the vanillin, where you can with a vanilla flavoring. So say you have a raspberry ice cream flavor and you want to add a touch of vanilla either on the back or in the front, well then vanillin is not what you want to use. What the vanillin will do is give your entire mix a vanilla property that you’ll taste throughout the entire vape. It’s a specific ingredient, but a useful one when you do need it. If you have a macaron flavor and you want to give it an overall vanilla flavor profile to help add in some intricacies, then vanillin is a great use. Remember to use it conservatively.

Vanillin is just one compound of the complex vanilla flavor and is usually artificially extracted due to the price of real vanilla. Artificial vanillin is made from either guaiacol or from lignin, a constituent of wood which is a byproduct of the paper industry.
Vanilla flavors that you know from flavor concentrates are often much more complex than plain and simple vanillin, but that doesn’t mean those concentrates don’t have vanillin in them. Just don’t confuse the 2.

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If only 0.5% added EM destroys the juice probably means that your recipe without the added EM already contains a hell of a lot of EM or maltol…
I’d check the concentrates you used before tossing out your EM. You may buy non-sweetened flavors in the near future where EM could be of help.

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Its not always muting either, ethyl maltol is a nuance sweetener but not an overall sweetener. Meaning that it amplifies and sweetens specific nuances of a flavor (mostly high and middle notes) and “balances” the back and underlaying notes, as well as smoothing it out with the impression of thicker/juicier mouth feel.

When using too much it will mute, especially in combination with preexisting “sweetener” of any kind contained in flavors. However EM works best in combination with sucralose, hence tfa sweetener is very popular.

The sucralose does sweeten the whole juice, EM as stated above the nuances, together match in heaven…on paper lol.

So if you plan on using it, try it as a combo start with 0.25% and work up. But do keep in mind additional fructose, EM, Stevia, vanillin, ap, sucralose, triacetin and erythritol that lots of flavor contain will just add to the problem. There’s other ways to accomplish all that without EM. It does have its place if used correctly tho.

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I vape recipes with 10% EM dilute it in PG (Cotton Candy TPA) every day the last 1 year. From low % even at 20%. Yes it mute flavors but after 6-8 weeks the flavors comes back (better after 12weeks). If you like flavors like Soho FA, EM is the main flavor, Soho contain 10% EM and FA recoment it @ 20% as I like it.

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How many days did you let it steep? Most of the times at 2 weeks start the mute ‘‘effect’’.

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I know about the muting if i use to much EM, but its more fruits what EM is muting, or? Or mutes it also ie. The Vanilla in a Vanilla Custard?

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The numbers are going to vary. As well as the flavors that are affected.

The simple reason is because some flavors already contain EM as a component of the flavor. And they are used at various levels, depending on the flavor. So there’s not going to be a “standard answer”.

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I create recipes that I can pretty much vape with 10 days of steeping or less hehe. EM is my favourite sweetener I normally use it at 1.5 that being said anything with 1.5 in only taste like EM for 24 hours. I have no muting at all on my flavors but they are normally made and vaped within 30days. Don’t know if it’s just me though not getting the muting… (ps I use TFA)

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