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MSG Discussion

#1

Not to mention MSG - monosodium glutamate which is a powerful excitotoxin that screws around with neurotransmitters in your brain and can kill brain cells found not just in fast food but many grocery store foods. They even hide it by giving it other names like hydrolyzed protein or modified protein etc. FDA approved poisoning of the food supply

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FDA says Cherry, Vanilla, Peach, Raspberry Flavors are OK!
#2

Hello, warkwarth ! I find indications that MSG in gut disassociates into glutamate and sodium ions, and a typical human contains 4.4 pounds of glutamate or Glutamic acid. It is a main component of proteins and peptides, and present in most tissue. Virtually every food contains glutamate. It’s a major component of protein rich food like meat, eggs, poultry, milk, cheese, and fish. Glutamate or Glutamic acid is also ubiquitous in grain, beans, vegetables, mushrooms, fruits, nuts, sea vegetables such as kombu, and even mother’s milk, and dietary Glu is almost impermeable into the circulating blood. Also there is the blood-brain barrier against Glu in between blood and brain so as to not to incorporate into it the brain, where In the brain, Glu, which is locally produced completely de novo from glucose, acts as a major excitatory neurotransmitter, and its activity regulates synaptic plasticity, learning, memory, motor activity, and neural development. I (once) got a painful headache after eating foods seasoned with MSG in a restaurant. Various “white-coats” seem to poo-poo such reports as “anecdotal”, and suggest that they arise out of “psychological suggestibility”. What do you think that researchers may possibly have, or are missing ?

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#3

yes glutamate is naturally occuring but MSG when put in our foods is in a highly concentrated form.
glutamate itself is a powerful excitotoxin in high concentrations even though its naturally made in our bodies, excitotoxins potentially kill brain cells from over-stimulation. Because its naturally occuring is why this is a problem. we were never meant to be eating it in concentrated form. Glutamate cannot cross the blood-brain barrier by itself but it is actively transported into the nervous system by a high affinity transport system which maintains its concentrations in the brain at consistent levels.
It has been a while since I read about MSG so maybe ill get back to you again once I brush up on it.

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#4

Check out the rather large amounts of Glutamate existing (particularly) in Chicken Breast and Salmon here. Such sobering facts may not bode well for "Free Range Non-GMO Corned Beef Shank” flavor experiences.

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#5

So THAT’S why chicken tastes so good.
Very interesting and part of the problem with all this is that metabolism is extremely complex but glutamate toxicity is now being linked to multiple neurodegenerative disorders like alZheimer’s, huffington’s disease and ALS and it’s not a mystery that glutamate is in fact excitotoxic because it overstimulates neurons in the brain
MSG is not glutamate but it is a sodium of salt of glutamic acid which is glutamate and it’s used as a flavor enhancer BECAUSE it stimulates the brain, That’s why it tastes good.
And it’s in so so so much of our foods today so bioaccumulation is a serious risk.
It’s also not the only excitotoxin used the market there a handful of others like aspartate and most of them are all used naturally by our bodies for important functions
but Health is a all about balance. Even the vitamins we need are toxic in high amounts.


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#6

Warkwarth, I had a look at those two papers. Indeed, there has been a fair amount of speculation about Glutamate functionality (and hypothesized perturbations) in relation to various subjects - but I do not find those references addressing the cogent question of whether or not (plasma) Glutamate is able to cross the BBB into the CNS (in significant amounts) by some identified and measurable bio-molecular mechanism(s).

I did find some work by Hawkins (published in 2009 and 2016) on that specific subject.

A recent paper (2018) makes a notable case arguing against such MSG hypotheses:

Abstract: … key findings have been that (a) the ingestion of MSG in the diet does not produce appreciable increases in glutamate concentrations in blood, except when given experimentally in amounts vastly in excess of normal intake levels; and (b) the blood-brain barrier effectively restricts the passage of glutamate from the blood into the brain, such that brain glutamate levels only rise when blood glutamate concentrations are raised experimentally via non-physiologic means. These and related discoveries explain why the ingestion of MSG in the diet does not lead to an increase in brain glutamate concentrations, and thus does not produce functional disruptions in brain.

Conclusions: … studies in rodents injected with massive doses of MSG are not particularly useful in evaluating the safety of MSG in the human food supply with regard to brain function. First, the extent to which plasma GLU concentrations must rise to produce effects in rodent brain are never encountered in humans consuming GLU in their daily diets. Even very large increases in plasma GLU concentrations in fasting humans (produced in an experimental setting) do not push GLU into brain, as evidenced by the lack of changes in pituitary hormone secretion. Such increases in plasma GLU levels never occur in humans ingesting even large amounts of MSG in their meals and diets. … it is important to note that MSG intake in the human diet is likely self-limiting, based on the fact that the perceived pleasantness of ingested MSG (MSG taste) diminishes markedly as its concentration rises, in contrast to the perceived pleasantness of sugar (sweet taste), which results in no such aversion at high concentrations. Together, the findings from non-human primate and human studies provide important evidence that MSG in the food supply presents no hazard to the human brain.

Source (the title of the paper serves as a summary of study findings):
“Monosodium Glutamate in the Diet Does Not Raise Brain Glutamate Concentrations or Disrupt Brain Functions”; Fernstrom; Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism 2018;73(suppl 5):43-52

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#8

It looks like it needs a helping hand from NAC. I take NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine) supplements everyday. It seems to work hand and hand with Glutamate to make a beneficial antioxident for our bodies and brain along with helping for stress and depression and even some mental health issues. Seems to need NAC which we don’t normally produce to cross the BBB in the from of Glutathione to be a good thing. :wink:

NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine) supplement

From - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3036554/
The Metabolic Roles of NAC

NAC is an acetylated variant and precursor of the amino acid, L-cysteine.
Through the role of cysteine, NAC metabolically contributes to two key physiological functions: 1) antioxidant activity and 2) the regulation of the glutamatergic system.

Antioxidant activity. With regard to antioxidant activity, the cysteine component of NAC combines with glutamate and glycine, all of which are precursors in the production of glutathione.8 In the production of glutathione, cysteine is the rate-limiting step.5 Glutathione, in turn, is a major endogenous antioxidant.3 In fact, it is the most generic cellular antioxidant in the body.8 Because of its antioxidant activity, glutathione is essential for the immune system to exert its full potential. While glutathione is commercially available, its oral bioavailability remains controversial.9 Therefore, its precursor, NAC, has been a more promising avenue to pursue in clinical investigations.9

In terms of clinical implications, oxidative stress has been empirically associated with a number of psychiatric disorders,10 including schizophrenic11 and bipolar, depressive, and anxiety disorders.12 Therefore, NAC may be a useful intervention for these psychiatric disorders—a postulation that is now being supported by preliminary research.

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#9

this is especially true rodent brains are very different from human brains.
There life-line is short compared to humans and their brain chemistry is very different. these studies draw alot of conclusions fpr a different species and on a short timeline that do not translate well to human beings.
They also measured the effects based on indirect relationships such as
large ingestions of MSG did not create brain lesions
MSG did not cross placenta barrier in lactating woman
Neurodegenerative diseases take alot longer than the lifetime of a mouse to develop
Tests on mice and even primates don’t translate well to human beings and this test was SOLELY on MSG NOT GLUTAMATE and they only measured serum levels of MSG not glutamate. Like I said before metabolism is extremely complex
and is not even fully understood by these researchers.
There are an alarming number of studies that show up that don’t relate to humans, are incomplete or are biased.
But you don’t need to be a PHD
all you really need to do is read up on the effects of glutamate itself on and ask yourself if ingestion large quantities of a neurotransmitter destabilizer/cytotoxin would be beneficial.

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#10

Like I said before alot of these are important for the body and fill vital roles in the body the problem is concentration vitamins are even toxic in high amounts.

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#11

Of course. Just noting if someone is really concerned with GLUTAMATE intake, They may want to look at NAC supplements also, to help turn it into something good.

If you read the whole paper it looks like it also helps with addictions and obsession compulsive issues. Might be a good thing to help someone new trying to get off cigs. :wink:

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FDA says Cherry, Vanilla, Peach, Raspberry Flavors are OK!
#12

How about that, Freddie ! Am myself interested in NAC, have a small pile of papers/bookmarks about it, and have taken it in small amounts before getting out for some walking exercise a couple times a week for a few years time. From what I can gather, the dimer Cystine is the endogenous “carrier” molecule that the liver (predominantly, in first and second-pass hepatic metabolism) makes from two separate individual Cysteine amino acid moeities that exist in the N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC) molecules.

The dominant use of NAC in medicine is the attempted treatment of Acetaminophen poisoning (~17,000 hospital admissions per year in the US) where it (either directly, or indirectly as incorporated into liver-produced Glutathione - they don’t really know) detoxifies the damaging metabolite. Other uses (when atomized, but not using heat !) include respiratory expectorant (outside of the US and Canada, which have deemed it not useful for such purposes). A number of studies have been conducted in relation to certain psychiatrically hypothesized “psychological conditions”, and in (primarily Cocaine and Nicotine, and a few other drugs) cessation efforts.

Certain studies have pre-loaded folks (with NAC) prior to physical exercise, and attempted to assess “oxidative signaling” that takes place as tissues recover from exertion. Interestingly, it appears that such “oxidative signaling” itself (may) have a meaningful biological purpose, and it is unclear whether NAC administration is entirely beneficial (or perhaps, not so much), as a result of it’s evidenced interference in such processes. The only class of anti-oxidants that those particular researchers looked at that did not (to some extent) interfere with “oxidative signaling” was the anthocyanins (found in highest amounts in Elderberry, Bilberry, and Blueberry, and some other fruits).

The biological fate of ingested NAC is not (from what I have found) well characterized. “Bioavailablity” estimates range in the ~10% area. The NAC molecule is also fairly reactive, so I ingest it on any empty stomach, which may maximize intestinal absorption.

It seems to be thought that (most) Glutathione (not well orally absorbed itself) is likely manufactured in the liver following intestinal absorption, with syntheses in other bodily organs/tissues being less clearly understood. If (and if so, how) such things as NAC and Glutathione (may, possibly) penetrate BBB seems fairly unclear. These subjects (like so many things) seem to be both sketchy in information, and thus (as might be expected) controversial. The Cystine (dimer) appears to be the dominant endogenous biological form (once metabolized by the liver) - and the relevant molecular “carrier” (of the Cysteine in NAC) involved.

One thing to note is that “Whey protein” extracts (which are high in Cystine) are required to be pasteurized at relatively high temperatures which (may) degrade the Cystine within.

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#13

Good work! Yes all good stuff. It does increase blood flow to muscles for working out and healing them. I use it for that with (BCAA’s) along with taking for it stress and helping my sinus’s and mucus/allergies. rather than using anithistines and decocongestants (the bad stuff) and being a poweful antioxident builder and protecting the liver. I just can’t pass up taking it.

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#14

It seems unclear whether oral ingestion of NAC affects those things (though your empirical results on a personal basis “may know better”) - whereas the inhaled forms (which are “atomized” by means of pressure, and not by heat !) are used in many countries as an upper lung “expectorant” (outside of US and Canada).

Regular decongestant, and especially antihistamine, use is problematic and potentially harmful to mucus membranes in the long term. I use Saline Nasal Spray myself - nothing like a bit of (sanitary) “sea water” (as far as the NaCl content in solution) to inspire a healthy “nose blow” !

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#15

(Not sure, but) NAC at one point early on in my use (may) have assisted in my (over several weeks time) achieving a degree of improved endogenous pharmacological “stasis” - a changing of how I thought about how I think (so to speak). Somewhat hard to describe (and quite subjectively “anecdotal”, indeed) … :nerd_face:

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#16

LOL Yes for me it does keep thing flowing well.

Big time issues as I recall when I researched it. probably double-so for people with already low histamine levels.

Yep oxidative stress releif

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#17

The methods by which such things are assessed are almost always “in vitro” (rather than “in vivo”), and I get the feeling that the white-coats understand significantly less about nearly all of the subjects that they poke their snouts into than they might wish us to believe. The whole “scene” often reminds me of Dunning and Kruger’s seminal work detailed here. Rest assured, not only I, but folks who I consider to be in many ways “smarter” than myself all at times may exhibit a bit of what Alfred North Whitehead aptly termed as, “the ascription of misplaced concreteness to the scientific scheme”. Existence is the great humbler ! … :slightly_smiling_face:

Poking through my drives, I located a couple of articles that might interest you, Freddie:

“Oxidative Stress and Respiratory System: Pharmacological and Clinical Reappraisal of N-Acetylcysteine”

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The oxidative damage, or free radical, theory of aging can be traced back to Denham Harman, who found his true calling in December 1945, thanks to the Ladies’ Home Journal. His wife, Helen, brought a copy of the magazine home and pointed out an article on the potential causes of aging, which he read. It fascinated him. … nine years later, after graduating from medical school … he … began contemplating the science of aging more seriously. One morning while sitting in his office, he had an epiphany - “you know just ‘out the blue,’” he recalled in a 2003 interview: aging must be driven by free radicals. … Harman started testing his hypothesis. … Other scientists soon began testing it, too. … “It’s ubiquitous, it’s in every textbook. Every paper seems to refer to it either indirectly or directly.” … over time scientists had trouble replicating some of Harman’s experimental findings. By the 1970s “there wasn’t a robust demonstration that feeding animals antioxidants really had an effect on life span” … Time and again, Richardson’s experiments with genetically modified mice showed that the levels of free radical molecules circulating in the animals’ bodies - and subsequently the amount of oxidative damage they endured - had no bearing on how long they lived. … free radicals may be beneficial in some contexts and dangerous in others. … Aging probably is not a monolithic entity with a single cause and a single cure, he argues, and it was wishful thinking to ever suppose it was one. … Free radicals might, in some cases, be produced in response to cellular damage - as a way to signal the body’s own repair mechanisms, for example. In this scenario, free radicals are a consequence of age-related damage, not a cause of it. … slowly, it seems, the evidence is beginning to suggest that aging is far more intricate and complex than Harman imagined it to be nearly 60 years ago.

“The Myth of Antioxidants - The hallowed notion that oxidative damage causes aging
and that vitamins might preserve our youth is now in doubt”, Scientific American, 2013

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#18

Indeed. Certain cumulative bilogoical toxicities are worth noting. (Heme form) Iron (found in meat, poultry, fish, and dairy) is probably the most dangerous - as it is almost completely absorbed (without much endogenous modulation), and Iron is so highly conserved in human bodies that only ~1-2 mg is excreted per day. Liver damage can result, and the high associations founds between Heme Iron intake and cardiovascular events are downright chilling. I won’t even list the findings (as they are simply too unsettling).

Supplementing Calcium (even as little as 600 mg per day) has been associated with a higher incidence of causes of death attributed to cardiovascular events. Get it from food.

Vitamin D consumption (which is transformed in the liver to “Calcidiol” having a 2-3 week plasma half-life), as well as Iodine (with a biological half-life of ~80 days), can be harmful - because they can accumulate in plasma/tissues.

The essential mineral Phosphorous (in any form), which all high-protein foods are chocked full of (save for Egg Whites) can be harmful if/when Vitamin D metabolism (via the liver, and then via the kidneys, regulating intestinal Calcium absorption from diet) is inadequate - the core mechanism of the development of Osteoporosis (and other serious health problems).

Various carotenes (Vitamin A, Beta-Carotene, Lutein) in large amount are said to be harmful to the liver.

Excess Vitamin C (one’s body saturates at ~250 mg intake) can be metabolized to Oxalate, the prime cause of ~80% of kidney stone formations (Calcium-Oxalate crystals).

Too much Vitamin B6 is said to cause nervous system problems, with damage possible.

That said, (I think that) the FDA should stick with “truth in labeling/dosage information” only !

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#19

@Raven-Knightly Thanks great read…

Yes the whole how Vitamins are killing you FAD. LOL

Don’t ask how many Vits and sups I take now.

After smoking and doing so much damage. the least I can do is try to give my BODY what it needs to heal itself the best it can

My next one is Resveratrol. :wink:

I’m looking into the whole methylation processes, it’s very interesting.

What does methylation do in the body?
Simply put, methylation is a chemical reaction that occurs in every cell and tissue in your body. Chemically speaking, methylation is the process of adding methyl groups to a molecule. … Enzymes, hormones, and even genes are proteins and the process of methylation affects them all.

What is methylation testing?
GENERAL. The DNA Methylation Pathway Profile allows clinicians to screen their patients for a variety of genetic changes (single nucleotide polymorphisms, or SNPs) that may impact the function of important biochemical processes such as methionine metabolism, detoxification, hormone balance and Vitamin D function.

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#20

Ive read this is relative to your vit K intake. If your getting enough Vit K you should be OK with Calcium. Since the Vit K moves it out of your circulatory system so it doesn’t build up.

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#21

(Heme) Iron and Vitamin D toxicities (from dietary intake, or supplements) are no joke - I know personally.

“Mother would like to know”… :nerd_face:

Part of the “methyl-matical” craze may be that it’s groovy when the telomeres in DNA structures become methylated, causing people to lust for “methyl-donor” (B-complex) vitamins, etc.

Thing is, a methyl group is just a Carbon atom bonded to three Hydrogen (and one other) atoms. They are also associated with some of the most dreadful and potent poisons, as well. There is nothing implicitly good or evil about methyl groups. It’s all about the molecules that they are a part of, what biological properties exist, how and where one’s organs and tissues are exposed and affected.

Dunno. I wouldn’t bet my health on that. These things are (super) complicated as well as being non-linear, and to date seem not very well understood. Vitamin K is the source of clotting-factor manufactured in the liver, and I’ve seen stuff about some relationships between Vitamin K and Vitamin A metabolisms. Not well versed in that subject - in part because I have avoided Vitamin K in nearly all dietary forms for some time.

Have you yet fashioned your own Resveratrol Shrine yet ? I regularly worship at the Altar of Blueberry … :yum:

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No single man can make a distinction between the realm of his perceptions and the realm of things
that cause it since, however detailed the knowledge he may have acquired about the whole story,
this story is occurring only once, not twice.

Consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular.
Consciousness is a singular of which the plural is unknown.

Erwin Schroedinger

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The common division of the world into subject and object, inner world and outer world, body and soul is no longer adequate. … We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself but nature exposed to our method of questioning.

Werner Heisenberg

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