So THATâS why chicken tastes so good.
Very interesting and part of the problem with all this is that metabolism is extremely complex but glutamate toxicity is now being linked to multiple neurodegenerative disorders like alZheimerâs, huffingtonâs disease and ALS and itâs not a mystery that glutamate is in fact excitotoxic because it overstimulates neurons in the brain
MSG is not glutamate but it is a sodium of salt of glutamic acid which is glutamate and itâs used as a flavor enhancer BECAUSE it stimulates the brain, Thatâs why it tastes good.
And itâs in so so so much of our foods today so bioaccumulation is a serious risk.
Itâs also not the only excitotoxin used the market there a handful of others like aspartate and most of them are all used naturally by our bodies for important functions
but Health is a all about balance. Even the vitamins we need are toxic in high amounts.
Warkwarth, I had a look at those two papers. Indeed, there has been a fair amount of speculation about Glutamate functionality (and hypothesized perturbations) in relation to various subjects - but I do not find those references addressing the cogent question of whether or not (plasma) Glutamate is able to cross the BBB into the CNS (in significant amounts) by some identified and measurable bio-molecular mechanism(s).
I did find some work by Hawkins (published in 2009 and 2016) on that specific subject.
A recent paper (2018) makes a notable case arguing against such MSG hypotheses:
Abstract: ⌠key findings have been that (a) the ingestion of MSG in the diet does not produce appreciable increases in glutamate concentrations in blood, except when given experimentally in amounts vastly in excess of normal intake levels; and (b) the blood-brain barrier effectively restricts the passage of glutamate from the blood into the brain, such that brain glutamate levels only rise when blood glutamate concentrations are raised experimentally via non-physiologic means. These and related discoveries explain why the ingestion of MSG in the diet does not lead to an increase in brain glutamate concentrations, and thus does not produce functional disruptions in brain.
Conclusions: ⌠studies in rodents injected with massive doses of MSG are not particularly useful in evaluating the safety of MSG in the human food supply with regard to brain function. First, the extent to which plasma GLU concentrations must rise to produce effects in rodent brain are never encountered in humans consuming GLU in their daily diets. Even very large increases in plasma GLU concentrations in fasting humans (produced in an experimental setting) do not push GLU into brain, as evidenced by the lack of changes in pituitary hormone secretion. Such increases in plasma GLU levels never occur in humans ingesting even large amounts of MSG in their meals and diets. ⌠it is important to note that MSG intake in the human diet is likely self-limiting, based on the fact that the perceived pleasantness of ingested MSG (MSG taste) diminishes markedly as its concentration rises, in contrast to the perceived pleasantness of sugar (sweet taste), which results in no such aversion at high concentrations. Together, the findings from non-human primate and human studies provide important evidence that MSG in the food supply presents no hazard to the human brain.
Source (the title of the paper serves as a summary of study findings):
âMonosodium Glutamate in the Diet Does Not Raise Brain Glutamate Concentrations or Disrupt Brain Functionsâ; Fernstrom; Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism 2018;73(suppl 5):43-52
It looks like it needs a helping hand from NAC. I take NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine) supplements everyday. It seems to work hand and hand with Glutamate to make a beneficial antioxident for our bodies and brain along with helping for stress and depression and even some mental health issues. Seems to need NAC which we donât normally produce to cross the BBB in the from of Glutathione to be a good thing. 
NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine) supplement
From - Getting a Knack for NAC - PMC
The Metabolic Roles of NAC
NAC is an acetylated variant and precursor of the amino acid, L-cysteine.
Through the role of cysteine, NAC metabolically contributes to two key physiological functions: 1) antioxidant activity and 2) the regulation of the glutamatergic system.
Antioxidant activity. With regard to antioxidant activity, the cysteine component of NAC combines with glutamate and glycine, all of which are precursors in the production of glutathione.8 In the production of glutathione, cysteine is the rate-limiting step.5 Glutathione, in turn, is a major endogenous antioxidant.3 In fact, it is the most generic cellular antioxidant in the body.8 Because of its antioxidant activity, glutathione is essential for the immune system to exert its full potential. While glutathione is commercially available, its oral bioavailability remains controversial.9 Therefore, its precursor, NAC, has been a more promising avenue to pursue in clinical investigations.9
In terms of clinical implications, oxidative stress has been empirically associated with a number of psychiatric disorders,10 including schizophrenic11 and bipolar, depressive, and anxiety disorders.12 Therefore, NAC may be a useful intervention for these psychiatric disordersâa postulation that is now being supported by preliminary research.
this is especially true rodent brains are very different from human brains.
There life-line is short compared to humans and their brain chemistry is very different. these studies draw alot of conclusions fpr a different species and on a short timeline that do not translate well to human beings.
They also measured the effects based on indirect relationships such as
large ingestions of MSG did not create brain lesions
MSG did not cross placenta barrier in lactating woman
Neurodegenerative diseases take alot longer than the lifetime of a mouse to develop
Tests on mice and even primates donât translate well to human beings and this test was SOLELY on MSG NOT GLUTAMATE and they only measured serum levels of MSG not glutamate. Like I said before metabolism is extremely complex
and is not even fully understood by these researchers.
There are an alarming number of studies that show up that donât relate to humans, are incomplete or are biased.
But you donât need to be a PHD
all you really need to do is read up on the effects of glutamate itself on and ask yourself if ingestion large quantities of a neurotransmitter destabilizer/cytotoxin would be beneficial.
Like I said before alot of these are important for the body and fill vital roles in the body the problem is concentration vitamins are even toxic in high amounts.
Of course. Just noting if someone is really concerned with GLUTAMATE intake, They may want to look at NAC supplements also, to help turn it into something good.
If you read the whole paper it looks like it also helps with addictions and obsession compulsive issues. Might be a good thing to help someone new trying to get off cigs.
How about that, Freddie ! Am myself interested in NAC, have a small pile of papers/bookmarks about it, and have taken it in small amounts before getting out for some walking exercise a couple times a week for a few years time. From what I can gather, the dimer Cystine is the endogenous âcarrierâ molecule that the liver (predominantly, in first and second-pass hepatic metabolism) makes from two separate individual Cysteine amino acid moeities that exist in the N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC) molecules.
The dominant use of NAC in medicine is the attempted treatment of Acetaminophen poisoning (~17,000 hospital admissions per year in the US) where it (either directly, or indirectly as incorporated into liver-produced Glutathione - they donât really know) detoxifies the damaging metabolite. Other uses (when atomized, but not using heat !) include respiratory expectorant (outside of the US and Canada, which have deemed it not useful for such purposes). A number of studies have been conducted in relation to certain psychiatrically hypothesized âpsychological conditionsâ, and in (primarily Cocaine and Nicotine, and a few other drugs) cessation efforts.
Certain studies have pre-loaded folks (with NAC) prior to physical exercise, and attempted to assess âoxidative signalingâ that takes place as tissues recover from exertion. Interestingly, it appears that such âoxidative signalingâ itself (may) have a meaningful biological purpose, and it is unclear whether NAC administration is entirely beneficial (or perhaps, not so much), as a result of itâs evidenced interference in such processes. The only class of anti-oxidants that those particular researchers looked at that did not (to some extent) interfere with âoxidative signalingâ was the anthocyanins (found in highest amounts in Elderberry, Bilberry, and Blueberry, and some other fruits).
The biological fate of ingested NAC is not (from what I have found) well characterized. âBioavailablityâ estimates range in the ~10% area. The NAC molecule is also fairly reactive, so I ingest it on any empty stomach, which may maximize intestinal absorption.
It seems to be thought that (most) Glutathione (not well orally absorbed itself) is likely manufactured in the liver following intestinal absorption, with syntheses in other bodily organs/tissues being less clearly understood. If (and if so, how) such things as NAC and Glutathione (may, possibly) penetrate BBB seems fairly unclear. These subjects (like so many things) seem to be both sketchy in information, and thus (as might be expected) controversial. The Cystine (dimer) appears to be the dominant endogenous biological form (once metabolized by the liver) - and the relevant molecular âcarrierâ (of the Cysteine in NAC) involved.
One thing to note is that âWhey proteinâ extracts (which are high in Cystine) are required to be pasteurized at relatively high temperatures which (may) degrade the Cystine within.
Good work! Yes all good stuff. It does increase blood flow to muscles for working out and healing them. I use it for that with (BCAAâs) along with taking for it stress and helping my sinusâs and mucus/allergies. rather than using anithistines and decocongestants (the bad stuff) and being a poweful antioxident builder and protecting the liver. I just canât pass up taking it.
It seems unclear whether oral ingestion of NAC affects those things (though your empirical results on a personal basis âmay know betterâ) - whereas the inhaled forms (which are âatomizedâ by means of pressure, and not by heat !) are used in many countries as an upper lung âexpectorantâ (outside of US and Canada).
Regular decongestant, and especially antihistamine, use is problematic and potentially harmful to mucus membranes in the long term. I use Saline Nasal Spray myself - nothing like a bit of (sanitary) âsea waterâ (as far as the NaCl content in solution) to inspire a healthy ânose blowâ !
(Not sure, but) NAC at one point early on in my use (may) have assisted in my (over several weeks time) achieving a degree of improved endogenous pharmacological âstasisâ - a changing of how I thought about how I think (so to speak). Somewhat hard to describe (and quite subjectively âanecdotalâ, indeed) ⌠
LOL Yes for me it does keep thing flowing well.
Big time issues as I recall when I researched it. probably double-so for people with already low histamine levels.
Yep oxidative stress releif
The methods by which such things are assessed are almost always âin vitroâ (rather than âin vivoâ), and I get the feeling that the white-coats understand significantly less about nearly all of the subjects that they poke their snouts into than they might wish us to believe. The whole âsceneâ often reminds me of Dunning and Krugerâs seminal work detailed here. Rest assured, not only I, but folks who I consider to be in many ways âsmarterâ than myself all at times may exhibit a bit of what Alfred North Whitehead aptly termed as, âthe ascription of misplaced concreteness to the scientific schemeâ. Existence is the great humbler ! ⌠
Poking through my drives, I located a couple of articles that might interest you, Freddie:
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The oxidative damage, or free radical, theory of aging can be traced back to Denham Harman, who found his true calling in December 1945, thanks to the Ladiesâ Home Journal. His wife, Helen, brought a copy of the magazine home and pointed out an article on the potential causes of aging, which he read. It fascinated him. ⌠nine years later, after graduating from medical school ⌠he ⌠began contemplating the science of aging more seriously. One morning while sitting in his office, he had an epiphany - âyou know just âout the blue,ââ he recalled in a 2003 interview: aging must be driven by free radicals. ⌠Harman started testing his hypothesis. ⌠Other scientists soon began testing it, too. ⌠âItâs ubiquitous, itâs in every textbook. Every paper seems to refer to it either indirectly or directly.â ⌠over time scientists had trouble replicating some of Harmanâs experimental findings. By the 1970s âthere wasnât a robust demonstration that feeding animals antioxidants really had an effect on life spanâ ⌠Time and again, Richardsonâs experiments with genetically modified mice showed that the levels of free radical molecules circulating in the animalsâ bodies - and subsequently the amount of oxidative damage they endured - had no bearing on how long they lived. ⌠free radicals may be beneficial in some contexts and dangerous in others. ⌠Aging probably is not a monolithic entity with a single cause and a single cure, he argues, and it was wishful thinking to ever suppose it was one. ⌠Free radicals might, in some cases, be produced in response to cellular damage - as a way to signal the bodyâs own repair mechanisms, for example. In this scenario, free radicals are a consequence of age-related damage, not a cause of it. ⌠slowly, it seems, the evidence is beginning to suggest that aging is far more intricate and complex than Harman imagined it to be nearly 60 years ago.
Indeed. Certain cumulative bilogoical toxicities are worth noting. (Heme form) Iron (found in meat, poultry, fish, and dairy) is probably the most dangerous - as it is almost completely absorbed (without much endogenous modulation), and Iron is so highly conserved in human bodies that only ~1-2 mg is excreted per day. Liver damage can result, and the high associations founds between Heme Iron intake and cardiovascular events are downright chilling. I wonât even list the findings (as they are simply too unsettling).
Supplementing Calcium (even as little as 600 mg per day) has been associated with a higher incidence of causes of death attributed to cardiovascular events. Get it from food.
Vitamin D consumption (which is transformed in the liver to âCalcidiolâ having a 2-3 week plasma half-life), as well as Iodine (with a biological half-life of ~80 days), can be harmful - because they can accumulate in plasma/tissues.
The essential mineral Phosphorous (in any form), which all high-protein foods are chocked full of (save for Egg Whites) can be harmful if/when Vitamin D metabolism (via the liver, and then via the kidneys, regulating intestinal Calcium absorption from diet) is inadequate - the core mechanism of the development of Osteoporosis (and other serious health problems).
Various carotenes (Vitamin A, Beta-Carotene, Lutein) in large amount are said to be harmful to the liver.
Excess Vitamin C (oneâs body saturates at ~250 mg intake) can be metabolized to Oxalate, the prime cause of ~80% of kidney stone formations (Calcium-Oxalate crystals).
Too much Vitamin B6 is said to cause nervous system problems, with damage possible.
That said, (I think that) the FDA should stick with âtruth in labeling/dosage informationâ only !
@Raven-Knightly Thanks great readâŚ
Yes the whole how Vitamins are killing you FAD. LOL
Donât ask how many Vits and sups I take now.
After smoking and doing so much damage. the least I can do is try to give my BODY what it needs to heal itself the best it can
My next one is Resveratrol. 
Iâm looking into the whole methylation processes, itâs very interesting.
What does methylation do in the body?
Simply put, methylation is a chemical reaction that occurs in every cell and tissue in your body. Chemically speaking, methylation is the process of adding methyl groups to a molecule. ⌠Enzymes, hormones, and even genes are proteins and the process of methylation affects them all.
What is methylation testing?
GENERAL. The DNA Methylation Pathway Profile allows clinicians to screen their patients for a variety of genetic changes (single nucleotide polymorphisms, or SNPs) that may impact the function of important biochemical processes such as methionine metabolism, detoxification, hormone balance and Vitamin D function.
Ive read this is relative to your vit K intake. If your getting enough Vit K you should be OK with Calcium. Since the Vit K moves it out of your circulatory system so it doesnât build up.
(Heme) Iron and Vitamin D toxicities (from dietary intake, or supplements) are no joke - I know personally.
âMother would like to knowââŚ
Part of the âmethyl-maticalâ craze may be that itâs groovy when the telomeres in DNA structures become methylated, causing people to lust for âmethyl-donorâ (B-complex) vitamins, etc.
Thing is, a methyl group is just a Carbon atom bonded to three Hydrogen (and one other) atoms. They are also associated with some of the most dreadful and potent poisons, as well. There is nothing implicitly good or evil about methyl groups. Itâs all about the molecules that they are a part of, what biological properties exist, how and where oneâs organs and tissues are exposed and affected.
Dunno. I wouldnât bet my health on that. These things are (super) complicated as well as being non-linear, and to date seem not very well understood. Vitamin K is the source of clotting-factor manufactured in the liver, and Iâve seen stuff about some relationships between Vitamin K and Vitamin A metabolisms. Not well versed in that subject - in part because I have avoided Vitamin K in nearly all dietary forms for some time.
Have you yet fashioned your own Resveratrol Shrine yet ? I regularly worship at the Altar of Blueberry ⌠
.
No single man can make a distinction between the realm of his perceptions and the realm of things
that cause it since, however detailed the knowledge he may have acquired about the whole story,
this story is occurring only once, not twice.
Consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular.
Consciousness is a singular of which the plural is unknown.
Erwin Schroedinger
.
The common division of the world into subject and object, inner world and outer world, body and soul is no longer adequate. ⌠We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself but nature exposed to our method of questioning.
Werner Heisenberg
I love the health field and especially food science but it is so murky and like raven
said as well is EXTREMELY complex
and not fully understood by anyone.
itâs hard to find the right answers.
All food is created into waste byproducts that are harmful
even âgoodâ food is bad for us
some are just less harmful or have what what need.
This is why something like 80% of our immune system is in our GI tract.
Another reason why fibre is so important for good health even though it isnât a vitamin
it collects and pushes these contaminants out.
I love learning about this stuff so feel free to post anything that seems important
and I will likely look into for my own benefit.
Like the iron thing @Raven-Knightly I would actually like to know more about it.
I would also like to know how many vitamin supplements you take
@Freddie3
Ill also add a little fun fact about oxolates since raven brought it up and I also used to do this myself. You should not drink tea right after eating something like berries
apparently this can create high levels of oxolate from a chemical reaction/binding in digestion, more than from the tea itself. It has been a while since I found the reference source for this but if memory serves it creates iron oxolate
Sounds like an irresolvable dictum from âGood King Badâ ⌠⌠It is true that we highly depend on liver, kidney, and lymphatic system functionality for our every breath. These things tend to fail us over time/tides.
Googling: âheme Ironâ âcardiovascularâ brings up seven relevant studies on the first results page. A 2015 meta-study (quoted below) lists the following CV risk factors (per mg of heme-Iron consumption per day):
Note that the risk ratios reported increase (geometrically, rather than additive) with each additional milliGram
This particular listing identifies teas as having Moderate (10-25 mg per serving) amounts of Oxalate. Ditto for Blackberries, Blueberries, and Strawberries. I can see the âadditiveâ angle of your statement - but any particular âsynergyâ otherwise appears unclear. Those desiring to limit daily Oxalate intake (often with the goal of decreasing the likelihood of developing Calcium-Oxalate kidney stones) often attempt to limit Oxalate intake to levels as low as 50 mg/day. Interestingly, a protective factor may well not exist so much in limiting Oxalate intake (per se) as it is in ensuring a daily Calcium intake (most effective if ingested together with Oxalate, as some of the protective activity occurs in the stomach and perhaps duodenum) of up to 1200 mg per day. One interesting study reported an ~ linear protective relationship between 200 mg and 1200 mg daily Calcium intake (effect recedes above 1200 mg per day). Calcium from food is highly recommended.
your right.
I canât find the relationship between these 2 myself.
I will refrain from making other statements without verifiable evidence the last thing we need here is more junk science.
If only pharma would follow the same the protocol they donât need to prove benefits or especially the harm the can be caused from the supplements they market.