Music Theory

Spot on. One of my favourite players, Pat Metheney does a lot of stuff that is very difficult to explain harmonically. He is just so in tune that he can play what he hears and knows where he is going, and how to resolve it, that he can play whatever comes into his head. Ultimately, that’s where you want to be. Easier said than done though.

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From (at least a starting Pentatonic) approach, only the (Major) 3 of Mixolydian mode differs from the “core” Pentatonics of the (shifted upwards by 4ths relative to the Mixolydian mode) Dorian and Aolean modes. From that “core” (1, Maj/Min 3, 4, 5, and Min 7), I may try adding-in a Maj 2 and Maj 6 (or Min 2 and Min 6, in the cases of Phrygian, Aolean modes). Never liked Maj 7 tone much (myself) in melody.

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Jay Gaydon (session player to the stars) used the “magic box” for his solo on Steely Dan’s “Peg.”( I’m full of useless information.)

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(For their time), Steely Dan (and perhaps Pink Floyd) had some of the best record-production going !

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I think a lot of people on this thread are intellectualising way too much on this subject. There are some basic things that you need to know, which you can learn from many books on the subject. Simple jazz theory books can tell you nearly all you need to know without melting your brain. In the end, if it sounds good, it works! Learn the basics, then play. Great players usually break the “rules” anyway.

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I introduced myself to Jazz greats Herb Ellis and Larry Coryell (as well as a local fellow named Howard Roberts) in the late 1980s. Good people who gave me their time - and all liked playing through my “magic box” contraption for a “fuller, fatter, sweeter, clean” sound.

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Howard Roberts started The Guitar Institute in LA I believe. Frank Gambale studied there. He’s pretty good, lol.

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Almost all of the “greats” that I admire are indeed self-taught - as was I. After ~20 years of playing, I delved into more “theoretical” ideas - but that time did little for my playing (while being quite interesting, challenging, and ultimately satisfying in terms of conceptual, form-oriented, mathematical “aesthetics”).

The most important part of our lives - our sensations, emotions, desires, and aspirations -
take place in a universe of illusions which science can attenuate or destroy,
but which it is powerless to enrich.
-Joseph Wood Krutch

The most exciting rhythms seem unexpected and complex,
the most beautiful melodies simple and inevitable.
-W. H. Auden

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How about that ! Howard Roberts used to live in Everett, WA in the 1980s, and I introduced myself to him at Jazz Alley, and we talked for a while prior to his gig. He played there that evening through (my own) “magic box”, and rather liked it. Really a fine fellow. He unfortunately passed away not long after.

Wowie Zowie ! Howard Roberts played lead guitar on the theme from The Twilight Zone ! :star_struck:

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Yeah, that was sad. We’re all going there, eventually though. He left a big legacy. Some of his teaching techniques were based on what they discovered at Nasa, working on the space program. They used them at the music college I studied at, and they work. Little and often is the trick, in a nutshell. Also how to hold the guitar so as not to get the dreaded tendinitis. It’s not how you would think, but is how most people instinctively hold the “electric” guitar, as opposed to the “classical” guitar. It’s a different instrument.

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Could you be talking about some bodily differences between playing seated, or standing (with strap) ?

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No, it’s to do with the hand positioning. With the classical guitar you tend to have your thumb flat on the back of the neck, and there will be some out there that disagree with me on this, but if you think about it logically, and actually look at your hand, having your thumb around the neck (like Hendrix) and how you tend to grab the neck naturally, means you are not bending your wrist as much. Sometimes you have to have your thumb flat for longer stretches, but usually it’s best if you are not bending your wrist. Pat Metheney, Hendrix, Robben Ford, Howard Roberts himself all do this. Some great players don’t, so… Less chance of getting tendinitis though if the tendons are not bending all the time.

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OK. I (think) that I can picture that. Seems like any desire of extreme bending of wrist “around” the neck may tend to be less “tempting” (and thus less likely to evolve) when playing guitar seated ?

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In photos the framing often makes “guitar heroes” appear “larger than life”. Jim Hendrix himself was (IIRC) around 5’6" in height - but appears to have had (relatively) large hands for his height. Being face to face with Pete Townsend and Stevie Ray Vaughn, I was amazed at how “small” these (relatively) short in stature fellows actually were/are. A fellow named Randy Hansen (who used to dress up like Jimi and played a decent “Hendrix cover show” here in the Seattle area) also had small, tiny hands (much like Stevie Ray Vaughn’s small sized hands). They all “got over it” quite famously, nevertheless ! :star_struck:

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Yeah, absolutely, hands vary, and the greats all find a way. Have you ever seen Frank Gambale? He has short, small hands, with stubby fingers, and his technique is absolutely astonishing. I think you’re right about the hand position being easier sitting, but not that much. If your playing is centred around large intervals then this is not for you, but for most (not all) people, this is the way to go. You have to if you want to bend strings.

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Just pick the guitar up using the fretting hand, trying to keep your wrist fairly straight, and you’re virtually there. Hope this helps.

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I have not but I’ll add it to my ‘things to work on’ list. Right now just focusing on connecting patterns so I can easily move beyond just 3 or 4 frets. To be honest this thread has morphed into way more theory than I’m comfortable contributing to, but I’ll be in the back corner lurking.

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“Standard” 12-Tone Scale Notes:

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 3 – 4 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

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Common “Blues” Pentatonic Scale Notes (the particular notes used appear in BOLD text):

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 3 – 4 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

The above Pentatonic (5-tone) scale uses notes derived from Aolean and Dorian modes.

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The following Pentatonic scale substitutes the Maj 3 (from Mixolydian mode) for the Min 3 (in the “Blues” Pentatonic scale shown above). That is the only difference between (these) Pentatonics:

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 34 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

(Actually), checking myself, and looking at my previous posted information, the (actual) Pentatonic scale derived from the (7-tone) Mixolydian scale is somewhat different:

Root Note ---------- Physical Movement

G (Mixolydian) --------- 2 2 - 3 - 2 3 [ called-out as 1, 2, maj3, 5, maj6 ]

D (Dorian) --------------- 3 2 - 2 - 3 2 [ called-out as 1, min3, 4, 5, min7 ]

A (Aolean) -------------- 3 2 - 2 - 3 2 [ called-out as 1, min3, 4, 5, min7 ]

This is the (strictly correct, physically shifted in half-steps to a new starting-point, true Pentatonic) scale:

1 – Min 2 – Maj 2 – Min 3 – Maj 3 – 4 – Flat 5 – 5 – Min 6 – Maj 6 – Min 7 – Maj 7 – Octave

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The important thing is to (quickly, discreetly) “try out” scale-tones - to hear their “perceptual viability”.

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Source: https://terryo.org/diaspora/Images/Quest-into-the-Unknown.gif

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That’s the right thing to do. Learn one scale all over the neck so that you’re really comfortable with it, and don’t have to think about it, before you start confusing yourself with more. I don’t want to come across as a know it all, but I am an accomplished player (nowhere near comparable to many though, so I don’t have delusions of grandeur) and I think I know what I’m talking about, and I love to help people. Just go through the scales for literally 5-10 minutes a day, 5 days a week for a month, and you’ll know it. THEN you can start to have fun with it. We learn by repetition, not by cramming. You can spend 16 hours on a Sunday working on it, but if you go back to it on Monday you’ll find that you’ve forgotten most of it. If you leave it until the following Sunday, chances are you’ll have forgotten it all. Hope this is of some help. Good luck, have fun. If you are unsure of anything, and you think I may be able to help, just let me know.

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You mentioned a few jazz guitarists. Curious as to what kind of things (in general) you enjoy listening to, and as well (not necessarily the same), enjoy playing on (guitar ?). :thinking:

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