“This number scales how close the samples overall character contains components that an experienced NET vaper readily and commonly identifies as particular and relevant to the nature of real NETs”
Maybe we should just take his opinions as they are/were meant and move forward with our own due diligence. I find the mob mentality a bit amusing in this thread, reminiscent of our society today, one group wishing to rule another by their standards.
I get that and if I hadn’t tried NETs I wouldn’t even bother to comment. My comments relate to the testing process. Without good tests how do you determine the relationship between the two?
While I agree with a few others that 5% is probably a bit much, I just want to say that I have tested all of these at what would usually be considered “normal” concentrations, and I mostly agree with your reviews. Kentucky, Red Burley, Virginia, and Oriental are my favorite Flavorah tobaccos. Cured is a popular one, but tastes like dryer sheets to me, and I get that same dryer sheet taste in quite a few of them, but in others it is hidden better. Classic Cigarette I find useful sometimes if trying to make a cigarette recipe, but it becomes overpowering above .5%, and even that low there is a grassy chemical taste to it, but that kind of dirty taste reminds me of the chemical taste in a cigarette, so I think it works. .1% of Arabian can still be too much for me, so 5% would give me night terrors, but even at .1% it’s still not really a great flavor. It’s not bad, but it’s just very strange, and I don’t really know where to put it in a recipe that is trying to mimic real tobacco.
I also agree that the term “tobacco” gets thrown around quite a bit, especially if the only “tobacco” flavor in a recipe is TFA RY4 Double (triggered), but I wouldn’t necessarily say that just because a recipe contains other non-“tobacco” flavors that it isn’t a tobacco recipe. I mean, aromatics are a thing, yes? So maybe listing all the non-tobacco flavors in @anon84779643’s recipes was a low blow. Without mixing them and saying definitively that they do not accurately taste like an aromatic tobacco with whatever topping, we can’t just dismiss them outright. And even if they don’t taste like an authentic aromatic, I think the wonderful thing about mixing and vaping is that you can make an apple pie juice and throw in some tobacco notes. I mean, that’s pretty cool.
I’m in the photochemical machining industry, Flavorah does not pay me. Though they did send me free flavors once.
PS. I think it was you that reviewed the Izmir Turkish NET for me a while back, so thanks for that!
i have to ask , what is this painting??
In the world of NET mixes with non tobacco flavors these are referred to as “Hybrids”, and yes they are perfectly OK and can result in some excellent vapes. But we in the NET world call them Hybrids, the term tobacco is reserved for mixes without other flavors. I understand that most people do not agree with my point of view that “words have meaning” and that a strict discipline about using labels is a positive thing. After all sloppy is always easier, it takes a little effort to be precise, I get that.
As to this debate about what the “correct” concentration rate is for FALVORAH, their website has this under the FAQ section:
How much of your flavor do I use?
Typical use rate is 1-4%. Thus, 1 part flavoring mixes with 25-100 parts of a flavorless base. Some flavors are so strong that they are best <1%
so that is a pretty wide range, a lot of room to move. I choose the high end for reasons I have posted previously.
As to “chemical tastes” these are known in the world of the professional flavor industry, to be a constant headache and effect many such products. From the bakery industry to softdrinks, the professionals are battling this issue all the time. Synth Vape bases like what we have from FLAVORAH are not immue to this issue of ‘defects’, and I wanted to test at high levels so I did not miss detecting any of them in their product line. I fully understand that if you back the flavor percentage down on those that have defects you may accomplish the goal of dropping the off-taste under the threshold of taste bud detection, but the off-falvor is still there, it has not magically disappeared and it may be having other interactions that are very subtle and could be considered unwanted in the overall profile.
Here is a quote about this issue from one of the major players in the food flavoring industry. This company, and a few others (less than 1/2 dozen world wide) are responsible for compounding virtually all the flavors that are sold and re-sold by distributors nationally. It is important to understand that most of the flavor concentrates you obtain from places like Bull City, no matter what they are labeled as, are sourced from just a very few major players that do the creation and compounding of the flavor line creation all the way through to the manufacturing. This is done under rigorous business contracts, and the participation of the ‘mother’ is part of a closely guarded non disclosure agreement. I don’t know what the business plan is at FLAVORAH, but if they are in fact, making their own product then they are unique in the industry.
I have edited out the name of this company, just to be fair to everyone:
(our) proprietary technology offers a new way of thinking when it comes to blocking off notes in foods and beverages. Instead of covering up off-notes from the use of strong flavors, Bitter Blocker and Bittermask™ binds to the bitter compound so it is not perceived by the taste buds. These may enhance or mimic the natural flavor of food or beverages or in some cases, may be used to mask undesired tastes. Flavor chemistry often involves recreating and enhancing the chemicals that are naturally present in a food in order to assist in making a stable and consistent product.
I totally agree with this statement. I probably have nearly 75-80% of their entire flavor line and I have tested most of them. Of those I have, I use 20% or so of them on regular basis. But as of late I’ve been retesting and reducing my usage % and I’m finding more of them to be acceptable.
I’m not saying those I don’t use regularly are bad, but some usage % errors on my part have lead me to believe they were.
My 1st love is extracts, but they don’t work without some synths in the mix.
Ohhh, I see. You don’t want anything that contains artificial tobaccos to be called “tobacco.” Not only do I think you’re going to have a bad time with convincing the vast majority of Vapers that aren’t in the small, niche NET crowd to stop using the term tobacco for artificial flavors, I also don’t know that you’ve really made a proper argument on why they should. In vaping, the term tobacco, I believe, has been used to describe artificially flavored e-liquids longer than people have been making NETs for vaping. So if you want words to mean something, you have to at least acknowledge what that term has historically meant when used in relation to vaping- which is an artificially flavored e-liquid that is meant to taste like tobacco.
Not saying it doesn’t make sense, it’s just I don’t think anyone is getting confused when Flavorah or any other company calls their flavors “Tobaccos.” It’d probably be confusing if after 10+ years of calling all these flavors “tobaccos” we all decided we are going to start calling them “Synths” so we don’t upset the 1% of Vapers that are exclusively NET Vapers.
LOL, … OK you win that argument. I will defer in the future from being such a stickler on the words. Call 'em what you will
You are right about the percentage of vapers and tobacco. One of the very interesting things that came out of the recent survey of 65,000 vapers and flavor that was done by Dr. Farsalinos is that when he crunched the numbers, only about 2.5% were full time tobacco vapers and 85% + were in the fruits and nuts flavor camp. I found that a very interesting piece of data - 
I have the full line, had had it for years now… I love every single one of them.
I do not publish all of my recipes and it ticks me off when I do have something and someone on purpose makes it out like I do not like tobaccos.
With my job, most of us do not speak out. I do. I want to help change flavoring for the better.
I know over flavoring has bad drawbacks and when someone doesn’t know to back down off the amounts, mutations and muting can and will happen, @Pro_Vapes… 
But everything I have tried to get old 50 or 15% to see, he can not for some odd reason.
I have not called anyone of the posters here to defend what I am saying.
The info on over flavoring has been out now for years. Not just on my site.
One drop is all it takes to change a juice.
Common sense says to back down if it tastes off/bad/plastic/burnt etc…
When one deals with nets… one wont have the experience of flavors… so it is what it is…
I think the tobacco and NET crowd should definitely join our forces together and raise a ruckus over the people that call RY4s “tobaccos” though. That’s a war I would gladly fight and lose haha.
I do believe I filled out that survey, so I’m one of the 2.5% that was counted there. I don’t believe the survey got any more specific about “tobaccos” and I would be curious how many of those 2.5% are exclusively NET. With Stixx Mixx getting a little more accessible, i imagine the number of people at least dabbling in NETs has gotten quite a bit bigger.
I’m not taking any particular side in this thread, but like you I don’t feel the flat 5% test fairly represent those flavors. Hell they just might suck at lower %s to. But unless you test them lower how would you know.
The reason I didn’t stick with NETs was it was so time and resource consuming. Also the high usage % needed for a satisfying vape and that coil gunking was a bit too much for me.
I don’t doubt NETs will closely represent a true bacco flavor, but it takes a rare breed that’s willing to put in the work to be a NETs only vaper. I have about 4-5 SYNTH tobacco recipes that I really enjoy without all the work needed to vape a convincing tobacco-like mix.
Meantime for the purpose of lightening up this topic, I am vaping my first ever ry4 attempt and going to call it tobacco. Y’all can be triggered now 
Nooooooo! Does it at least have more than RY4 Double?
It actually has no ry4 or ry4 double in it. I did order it tho but haven’t tried it. I used (WF) vanilla ruyan custard and yes I added stuff to it
You research then try them, that was my point due diligence
… present and accounted for!
I had a good run with synths… at least they got me to quit inhaling real burning tobacco leaves. However, once I started down the NET road, there was no comparison between NET and synth flavor for me. Plus, the flavor of synth tobaccos left a nasty taste in my mouth which I could not abide at any percentage. With NET, I can actually taste the flavor of the real tobacco. Joy! 
It’s just too bad that Flavorah wasn’t able release their actual NET concentrate, due to the FDA bullshit. It was good stuff… to me, it carried a way more true/authentic flavor than any of their other “tobacco” offerings. Why? …fairly sure it was made from a real tobacco absolute. Yummy!
IIRC I started using the MF extracts right around the time I was trying NETs. At that time my mixes of all synths really sucked. But once I invested in real extracts things turned for me and my mixes really improved. It opened a lot of avenues for me… kinda found my niche.
Yes i would but if he/she liked tpa @ 25% who am i to tell him/her she’s wrong. I wouldn’t take it personally. We are here to learn from and Help one another. Telling someone to…[
" So take your tirade, and your 15, 25 and 50% ideas and like go play with flavor west or something…Or go pay for more flavorah, or medicine flower or something… traffic comes to mind too.
These were HIS thoughts.
" DISCLAIMER:
First, as everyone here understands, TIS, = “taste is subjective”. These comments are from the perspective of my taste buds only. Your milage might vary."
How is the MF Tobacco Absolute? I did my first NET very shortly after I started DIY, but didn’t really care for it. Probably poor choice of tobacco, but it was too grassy so I started on a 3.5 year journey in to artificial tobaccos to try to find “the one.” All of my favorites so far have included tobacco absolutes. I’m starting to run out of tobacco flavors to buy, so now I think it’s time that I track down some more absolutes to play with. Received a sample of the Samara Botane Nicotiana Rustica TA, and it’s really tasty, but they’ve discontinued it. All the other ones seem to be Nicotiana Tabacum.
Side note to @Kinnikinnick- it seems I have taken a very similar journey that you have taken in to the fakes. Pretty much every flavor I have bought has had a note written by you. So thanks for all those! I wish when my stash was still small enough I had started adding them to ELR so I could have all my notes on there. But I was a pen and paper type of guy for a while, and now the backlog is a bit intimidating to try to tackle. One day maybe.
This is the most common point of view expressed in reaction to my testing. I was beginning to feel like maybe I did in fact wander out in the woods and became lost. So I got the map out and pin pointed where everyone else has been on this journey. Guess I am not as lost as I thought.
This sort of thing is typical in internet forums, sometimes the vocal folks that post are a sub set of the total users. - I want to make very clear that I am not tossing in @Pro_Vapes to the group of wing-nut forum poster zealots as he is a very experienced and knowledgable mixologist with a diverse background that included a stint at NET, so I take his comments seriously, but as they say ‘honest folks can disagree’.
Here is the results.
Arabian Tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 2.0 / 3.0
Cavendish Tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 2.0 / 5.0
Connecticut Shade (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 2.5 / 4.0
Cured Tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 3.0 / 5.0
Kentucky Blend
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 3.0 / 4.0
Native tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX = 3.0 / 6.0
Oriental Tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 2.0 / 2.0
Red Burley (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= = 3.0 / 5.0
Tatanka Tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 3.0 / 3.0
Turkish Tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 3.0 / 5.0
Virginia Tobacco (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 4.0 / 5.0
Classic Cigarette (Flavorah)
*ELR SFT reported AVG/MAX= 0.5/ 0.5
ELR SFT actual AVG/MAX= 3.9 / 5.0
Commercial Cigarette (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 2.0 / 2.0
Sweet Cigarette (Flavorah)
ELR SFT AVG/MAX= 5.0 / 5.0
*NOTE: There is some sort of anomaly with the automated software report on Classic Cigarette, as the reported number is very low at 0.5%, but if you hand tabulate it from the actual data in NOTES it comes out as AVG=3.925, MAX=5.0, so not sure what is going on there.