Sadly MF don’t do tobacco extracts… I really wish they did, because I’ve got some of my purest flavors from the MF flavor line. Most are crystal and devoid of any coil gunking. And the concentrations are insane.
Might have to pick it up and give it a go.
Oh FUNK!!! I’ve never seen that before. Please let me know how that go… I’m definitely interested in that extract.
I’ve always searched here when I’m on the MF site and I completely missed that extract…
I’ll pick it up and let you know. Weird that they don’t list it on that main list.
The subject of TA is very interesting. I think you guys should start a thread on it here on the forum. I don’t want to make extensive technical comments here in this thread for fear of dragging it all off topic, but it does deserve its own subject thread. Very briefly, TA is one of the oldest extracts going back over 100 years. Originally formulated from a distillation / extraction process that resulted in a product known as ‘tobacco concrete’ It was made for and used originally in mens cologne. One of the issues for us as flavor chasers is that traditionally it was made only from feedstocks like nicotiana rustica and little else. To this day the profiles available as TA are, unfortunately, very limited.
It is probably poor form, but here is a link to ‘that other forum’ and a nice discussion of TA
A little more info for those that’s interested…
TAs can be found here
and here as well.
I am atm testing the TA from the first link prediluted 1:10 (PG or Alcohol)
then mixed to 100 parts of PG.
Steeping one month+ and used as an aroma @±3%. Let sit for another 6 weeks+ is done.
Ordered the MF Absolute, so I can update on that after it arrives and I have some time to play with it a little bit.
I was also given 10 ml of a 10% dilution of the Samara Botane Nicotiana Rustica Absolute, which has unfortunately been discontinued. It has a very pleasing fruitiness to it, and I can see why it’s marketed for perfumery. I’d wear the shit out of a cologne that smells the way it tastes.
I picked up some Nicotiana Tabacum Concrete from Samara Botane, but the process of turning a concrete in to an Absolute is pretty vague from what I could find with some googling. I know it involves dissolving the concrete in ethanol, filtering out the waxes and fats, and then evaporating off the ethanol. But there seems like there could be another step in there where it has to be cooled to -80* C, and then cold filtered. If that’s the case, it’s a little outside the realm of my basement diy. Worst case, I’m out $7.
The ECX Tobacco Absolute was my first TA experience, and it’s still one I use on a somewhat regular basis. It’s nothing special, really, but it’s good. Some grassy notes and a little bit of ash is detectable.
INW Tobacco Absolute Virginia reminds me a lot of the ECX TA. Very grassy, but serves its purpose when it is needed in a recipe.
INW Tobacco Absolute Garuda is a very tasty one. It’s like plain and simple tobacco leaves. Pretty light for a TA, which I find odd. Kind of tastes like tea to me. Can taste a little ashy if it’s pushed a little higher.
INW Tobacco Absolute Cuban Cigar, to me, tastes quite a bit like Garuda, but is a bit more dry. I use it mostly to keep things from feeling too moist.
INW Tobacco Absolute Oriental is another slightly grassy one with some spiciness hiding in there somewhere.
I’m also fairly certain that INW uses TA’s in their DNB, and their “for Pipe” line, except for Red for Pipe and Vanilla for Pipe. At least on their website they have warnings on those flavors that they contain tobacco extract. Would make sense because those are some of my favorites.
That NR is definitely some lively stuff… I can’t go over .75% without it dominating the mix.
…impossible! I tried a few techniques, with no luck. The rest of the jar went into the garbage can.
I did try Alchem’s TA (not sold publicly)… and it was basically the same Nicotiana Tabacum Absolute which is sold by most DIY vendors; rather dank, grassy, or hay-like. But, mixed at low percentages, it added a nice “real quality” to most tobacco vapes.
impossible! I tried a few techniques, with no luck. The rest of the jar went into the garbage can.
Well shoot. I had a feeling that there was some important step that was left out of everything I read. I emailed a couple of people to get some clarification, but nobody got back with me.
and it was basically the same Nicotiana Tabacum Absolute which is sold by most DIY vendors
I kind of figured that most of them are going to be the same. I imagine the FE TA is probably what most of them taste like. If the MF TA tastes the same as the FE, I’ll probably just stop searching and keep on keeping on with the INW TA’s and the FE. Though I would like to find a place that has a Nicotiana Rustica Absolute so I can keep that one in stock. It kind of tastes like it might be the Absolute that is in INW Black for Pipe.
I will go out on a limb and question if the INW products are actual TA, or of they are base TA with additives to give slightly different profiles.
I say this becausue it is my understanding that the dominant world wide source of TA which is a highly consistent (single) flavor profile comes from one factory in Bulgaria that is
other distributers and reseller of their product are in lists like this:
If someone has a contact talking person at INW it might be a nice idea to inquire with them about exactly what they are really re-packaging and selling as TA.
I think that only two actual feed stock that are in productuon at this time for real TA: is N. rustica which is no longer cultivated in its native North America, and N. tabacum which has replaced it commercially.
I am more than a little suspicious that all this so-called TA floating around the vape DIY Vape Web e-commerce sites is just one of the two available TAs that has been adulterated with other flavorings and then re-sold as as things like “Cuban Cigar TA”… It brings a smile to my face, and a chuckle, I doubt that the most expensive cigar crop in the world (Cuba) is shipped to Bulgaria then is being boiled down by GALEN Ltd. in the quantities necessary to produce TA. I think this is just marketing nonsense,
You know me, I am that ‘words have meaning’ guy. If you call it TA then it needs to be TA. If it is something else then you need to say what it is, Or if it is GALEN TA with some artificial Cuban flavoring added then you need to say that.
Anyway, for me, at this time, my journey with NETs had taken me to exactly the other side of the possible approaches. What I mean by that is that TA is on one side of the scale, as the most highly processed and concentrated tobacco product available, then you have a sliding scale from there ranging into NET obtained via solvent extraction from fermented blending tobacco, i.e. Pipe Shop Blend, RYO Blends, etc. The scale then moves on to Pure Leaf, which is fermented, but unblended not ‘topped’ or adulterated. Those are pure examples of the hundreds of tobacco species grown around the world. This where I am at with it now. I have put up jars with samples from sources like leafs-only(dot)com
TA is just something I am not currently involved with…
That is not to say it is not worthy of experimentation. - As long as I am on the subject of my personal thoughts about TA, I will say that when I have noticed it used in commercial NET lines it gives the product line a uniform flavor identity, which is something that serious commercial marketers of a product line very much wants. It builds a loyal customer base for the uniform product line, This is a valid business plan, and is a very typical way of approaching building food flavoring, perfume, and vaping lines. Customers like to feel “confidant” that they will not be surprised with ‘one that is very different’ within a product line that they expect to be very consistent, and has a readily and similiar flavor sytle across the entire line. Commercial operators like Black Note, Want2Vape etc are using this technique.
At this time in my journey it is just not for me. I have experimented with it, and got exactly the “instant product line” result noted in the above paragraph. At random I picked a few out of my fridge, dropped in 1/2 ml of Nicotiana Rustica Absolute and BAM! I turned 1/2 dozen of my various distinct samples into a “product line”… That’s OK, just not what I am looking for in my hobby at this time.
Anyway: usual disclaimer applies: “TIS” - You mileage may vary.
…so @ChemicalBurnVictim don’t let me dissuade you from what sounds like a wonderful series of tests. I am all ears for your report on how it goes. I would just ask you to inquire with the supplier of your samples of TA, “exactly what is this stuff, who made it, what’s in it,… etc” of course, the food industry being “trade secret” and “marketing oriented”, you might never get a response from your inquiries, but it would be worth a try anyway.
I emailed them about a year ago with a similar inquiry, but got no response. They did just respond to one of my questions this morning, so I took the opportunity to ask them about it. I’m not too sure what kind of info I will actually be able to get out of them. They talk a bit about them in their forum but don’t really give specifics. Basically that they are already diluted.
Regardless of what all they actually do to make them, I treat them the same as I do any concentrate: use it if it’s good. I think your product line makes sense to a point. I’ve had a pretty limited experience with store bought juice since I started DIY soon after I started vaping, but my experience mirrors what you have said, though I don’t think it is the generic TA that is to blame. I think with DIY you can create some pretty diverse flavors that don’t all taste like they’re a product line (though who the hell am I kidding, I throw INW Black for Pipe in almost everything.) While I do enjoy the authenticity of some of my NETs, I find I have more fun with TAs and artificial flavors.
I will update if Inawera responds.
@ChemicalBurnVictim good to see you in elr mate i swear i searched for you before here with no luck
I’ve been a lurker for a while on the forums, but I’ve had my recipes on ELR for a while. I probably should clean up my recipes and add some of my favorite ones at some point.
Add smoaked so i can rate it bro
Got a reply from INW, though it is pretty short:
Each of then is diffrent tobacco absolut, all are pure absoluts.
From all of my own research, I don’t really have any reason to not believe this to be true. I, for example, could not find a source that says that Galen-N is the sole provider of the Bulgarian Tobacco Concrete (I wanted to edit to clarify that I could believe that the Bulgarian TA could all come from this place, but that not all TA comes from here.) In the ECF thread they were discussing how Velvet Cloud makes their own absolutes in house. Don’t know if that’s true, as I couldn’t find anywhere on their website that makes this claim, but it seems from that forum post that it is a pretty widely accepted thing. If they can produce their own, then I think INW can probably source their own. Hermitage Oils, for example has an Oriental, Burley, and Virginia Absolute, and I would assume since they are in the business of essential oils and the likes that they are not just using the same Bulgarian Absolute with different aroma volatiles added to make them smell different.
I will say, however, that the naming I do not think is accurate. I agree that there is no way they are taking actual Cuban Cigars and creating an absolute from them. My email to them a year ago that never got a response was about the TA Garuda. I have no idea what kind of tobacco they use to produce that one. So while I’d like to know what tobacco is actually being used for these, it’s not really a deal breaker because, as I said, I treat them like any artificial flavoring- use it if it’s good.
Right, the obvious discrepancies (lying) in naming conventions is the tip off for me. Clearly this is from a marketing department with maximizing sales as the intent. And I agree the answer from INW is very vague and no precise answer is really given Although there is a language barrier there, so that is a possible reason for the cryptic response.
I am sure we will never know the answer about all this, but I am suspicious that they are just taking the cheapest TA and adding flavoring agents and-or inexpensive diluent-extenders to get a product line. In marketing there is the temptation to diversify a simple product into dozens of “shelf mates” for the customer to choose among, and perhaps be tempted to then buy two or three (triple the cash flow) , where as if there was only one on the shelf, he would have bought only one.
My favorite example is in the dairy isle of any grocery store. Next time you are there look at the display area for the Philadelphia Cream Cheese brand. It is this concept taken to outrageous levels.
i will edit my post to say “dominant provider” rather than “single provider”. Historically they were, for many years the only one but as demand for vaping flavor manufacturing has exploded in the last 10 years, it may well be that the other folks you mention have thrown their hat in the ring.
Well actually I looked a bit further than the different names on that Hermitage Oils site, and all three of the different TAs are sourced from Bulgaria. I found that pretty interesting, so I shot an email out to Galen-N to see if they are actually selling different concretes or absolutes, even though they only have the one listed on their website. Still waiting for a response on that.
I’m not so sure we share the sentiment on “product lines,” and I also don’t think it’s something that you can narrow down to artificial flavors, and eliquid lines that use them. Do you think that pipe tobacco companies are not doing the same thing? Is the Latakia in Dunhill Nightcap really different than the Latakia in Dunhill Early Morning Pipe or My Mixture 965? Just because there’s a common theme between different products doesn’t mean it’s not worth having them. It’s all in what you do with it to make it different that makes it acceptable for them to be similar. And is the Nightcap being sold by the BAT “Dunhill” the same as the original blend? Is it “lying” to keep calling it Nightcap? Or is it a recognizable name (marketing)?
I am also fairly certain that Inawera does use different absolutes, not only because the taste and color are different between them, but also because on their forum I have read a thread where they were no longer going to be able to get the Absolute that they use for Dirty Neutral Base, so they were talking about swapping it with the Absolute that they use for the Virginia. So they have at least two different sources based on that. I don’t think, with the language barrier and company secrecy, we will really get a whole lot more info from them. So the search for the truth continues.
A question, what is the difference between Absolut (oil?) and Essential Oil?
The reason i ask is that a seller on the Bay claims to have a “Tobacco Absolute Oil” that is
" * 100% Pure & Natural Essential Oil
- Cold Pressed
OTH this article says
" organic matter …as subjected to a series of chemical solvent baths".
so there should be no cold pressed absolute…