I agree totally 
I wish I could agree. Back when I first started mixing I was like most everyone else. Got a lot of TPA and CAP flavors. Lot of high percentage flavors. But once I discovered INW, FA, FLV and others where use is sometimes under 1% and rarely over 5, I realized there is very little reason for a lack of concentrationā¦ I liken it to watered down liquor at a bar and canāt see any reason for it other than to make more money selling higher quantities of the cheap stuff (in this case, VG, PG or PDO) and less of what weāre going for which is flavoring. Iāve had this issue with RF from day one, and the PDO flavors I bought didnāt improve the situation much in my opinion. If RF would stop watering down their products I would be a good customer of theirs. Until then, not so much.
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I agree, I really like the flavors but wish it didnāt take so much to get anything out of them. I really wished the PDO flavors were the solution but it doesnāt seem to be the case. At this point I wish they offered a PG version of there flavors at a higher concentration. I like RF very much but the steep time and subdued flavor is wearing on me, just need to be able to get there without so much work like Inawera and Flavourart.
Here I am crossing my fingers that Waltās talent for wonderful flavors can be brought to all of us in a higher concentration. This would also help if a PG version can be used at 3% to get what the VG version gets at 15%, this way a max VG juice can be made with minimal side effects for those that are PG sensitive.
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Same hereā¦ Iāve been following this thread and I havenāt seen anything of interest. I like super concentrates myself and I think these would be a step backwards.
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@SthrnMixer @mjag @Pro_Vapes You all make very valid points, unfortunately there are not many options that I am aware of for those of us wanting to make PG FREE alternatives.
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To each their own, and Iām really hoping the alternatives folks are finding make a difference. The only reason I said anything is because I feel strongly that RF could be doing so much better for their customers by making their flavors more concentrated. No let me correct that. They could be doing better by not diluting their flavors like they do. So, they have VG based and PDO. All geared toward the PG-sensitive vaper. So to me I feel the people who need these alternatives are being ripped off. Your loss is their gain.
Hmmmm, why canāt they just make their current offerings more concentrated? But I agree with youā¦problem is thatās not in their niche.
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I do understand what you are saying but I am in no way knowledgeable enough to say what they could or could not do about it but I would think @Walt_RealFlavors might be able to share his thoughts on this topic.
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No doubt. 
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The amount of flavoring components in a blend are comparable to most other companies. When we sell to a snow cone syrup company, they expect the amount they use to be the same as if they were using any other company.
With that being said we do sell raw extracts to our wholesale customers, the problem we have with selling pure extracts to retail customers is the price point. Our cost to make 1 gallon of pure raw raspberry extract is about $425. Then when you add on testing, bottle, label, and other smaller things, the price keeps going up. To the point where a 1oz bottle of pure extract will cost us around $14-$17. If we sell the raws for $29.95, no one would buy it. We tested this already.
In the last 12 months, Real Flavors has spent 1.9 MILLION on testing for all our flavors just for the vape industry, so please donāt ever say we are ripping someone off @SthrnMixer
Last year as a company we spent so much on testing and formula development that we ended up down over half a million dollars. I personally work my ass off sometimes 70+ hours a week to provide the best flavors and the best prices I can. I do all this while losing money. So donāt you dare say I am ripping people off. Unlike other companies who claim to be natural or organic, we really areā¦ I personally visit the farms if I can to make sure the quality is there. I am passionate and love what I doā¦ but saying I rip people off is too far. Rant over.
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I tink there may have been a poor choice of wording.
I can say I am super happy with the level of concentrate of FA and INW. Prices are pretty competitive with n the market. I think MF is a bit high, but people using it know that 0.25% is like cap at at 5-10%. I only have one mf concentrate.
I think the issue in the market is the price point between cap and FA. A 15ml bottle of FA lasts much longer than the same in cap. I think there have been slight problem increase in price through more diluting in caps final products leaving their prices the same but requiring more flavoring thus raising there price point. Blah blah blah business business business term. 
All in all I do appreciate your dedication to the market, innovation, and participation here on ELR.
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I think thatās the understatement of the year, @Walt_RealFlavors has been nothing short of accommodating and forthcoming when it comes to plans and options with his business.
@SthrnMixer please donāt take this the wrong way, but I think an apology may be in order here for some shoddy wording towards someone whoās been a big part of innovation here at ELR.
@Walt_RealFlavors please donāt take that to heart as the feeling of all of us here at ELR, and please donāt stop the innovation and great communication with us and keep cranking out some great flavors, Iāll keep buying them.
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We arenāt DIYing snow cones Walt.
Donāt need pure extract, just a concentration that makes more sense. For example, there are some complex recipes created by people where often there are several flavors used to arrive at the desired flavor. Some would make it impossible or nearly impossible to do. Thatās just the impracticality of it. Like if I wanted to make a mix using RF Root Beerā¦well if I had more than say 2 other flavors Iām going to be over 20% total flavoring. If I wanted to have all RF flavors, well then that might just be off the charts.
Most of the flavors Iāve tried are very good. So the long hours are paying off in that regard.
Iām sorry you were offended, but itās how I see it and Iāve always lived by a ātell it like it isā philosophy. Yes, it takes money to make money. It takes hard HARD work to get a business to the point of profit. It also takes listening. I feel you guys are not providing a product that is a value to the consumer. I feel like the weakness of your flavors is due to over dilution. And when really good flavors can be found elsewhere that are comparably priced yet requires far less to be effective, the only conclusion I can come to is itās a rip off. Again, sorry if that offends you but youāre in business so Iām sure you are used to dealing with the buying public.
I would apologize if I was sorry. I was only saying what I think. And for that Iām not apologizing, nor am I the only one who sees things this way. Those who are happy with the strength of these products, thatās great. They are damn good flavors. But if youāll also notice I did not slam Walt personally or insult him. To insinuate I did is to change my words and ārip offā is the only thing he seemed to take offense to. If I was a bartender and you wanted a rum and coke, and I gave you a coke with a teaspoon of rum in it and charged full price, would that not be a rip off? Maybe others see it differently but to me itās the same thing. Explain to me where Iām wrong.
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I personally think your post could have been worded much better.
Yes you have every right to voice your opinion but ELR has always been a place of civility and cooperation among itās members not a place for slinging insults.
Please do explain how else this statement is not implying RF is ripping people off.
Personally I am Very Glad RF is doing what they are for us. I think @Walt_RealFlavors has went above and beyond as a business owner in his efforts to help those of us that can not tolerate PG.
This is a very serious issue for me so kudos to Real Flavors. Keep up the good work Walt I for one anyway appreciate you and your companyās efforts.
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I will just reply with this. While yes you do not make DIY snow cones, remember I do not make e liquid. You are using food flavors from all sorts of companies. None of them were 100% designed for e liquid. You are also 100% when you say I should know the buying public. That is why we normally would never sell via retail. I would love to see the reaction Linda or any of the other flavor owners would have to your message. Most would just ignore you and move on. Myself, I am willing to work with anyone out there. No matter if you order $5 or $50,000 from my company.
None the less I feel a new rant coming and it really is not worth it. Good luck @SthrnMixer, wish you the best.
PSā¦ If anyone ever wants a simple DIY snow cone flavor pm meā¦ They work great!
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I know. Was here on day 1. But there was no insults only stating it how I see it. You are choosing to take my honesty as insulting.
Itās great you took time to reply. Iāve held my peace on this for a long time Walt, and I knew it would probably be met with less than a hug. But would you rather me keep my head down, shut my mouth and mixā¦not buy from you at allā¦or say what I think? Maybe you donāt care what I thinkā¦I donāt know. But I donāt do PC and the only way I know is being up front with people.
No rant. I have tried hard not to rant and since you are obviously closed to the subject I will stop right here. Thanks for taking time to reply at all.
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Accusing someone that they are āripping offā people as a business owner is an insult, especially when you do that in a relatively public forum. Itās also known as a medium of decor to hedge your statements instead of blindly firing off what you feel. Along with the lines that you havenāt had a meaningful dialogue with the person first - you are just simply firing off the first thing that comes to your head.
My three year old does that, and believe me - I have no problem with telling him to use his words in a more meaningful manner, and he gets the results he looks forā¦ you however - should know better.
Just remember, sometimes you get more flies with honey - than you do with crap. Just sayingā¦
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Wonky wink smiley faceā¦my emoji game is still alittle slow.
But I recal flys are pretty well attracted to poo. Maybe itās time to get back on topic and next inovations plus flavoring testing note. I think both sides have said their peace well enough.
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Well, personally I see and agree with both sides (@SthrnMixer and @wvsanta), but Iāll break it down like what I perceive the intent wasā¦
I agree with Sthrn that āthe value isnāt thereā by relative comparison. Once youāve used TFA, Cap, etc, (6-8%) and then move into FA, and Inawera etc (2-3%)ā¦ You see what a huge disparity there can be between perceived value, and actual value.
When it takes triple the amount of one to equal the same level of flavor in another to achieve the same level of response from sensory receptors (nose and mouth in this case), you quickly realize that the higher price point item actually becomes the slightly cheaper (cost-effective) item. And this is where (I believe) @SthrnMixer takes issue. I agree to the overall point.
The difference also lies within a few things that @Walt_RealFlavors is already walking a tight rope on (on our behalf; other vapers with PG issues) with the Letigious nature of a certain unnamed company (assuming heās sourcing his PDO where I believe he is) who have take already taken an aggressive stance against our industry as a whole. The other factor that most arenāt aware of is the sheer BASE COST variance with regard to PDO vs PG. That factor alone is without a doubt the single largest factor in the required (to an extent) increased price point.
I very much agree that the levels of flavoring should be raised in relation to the level of base carrier. At least bring them within the same level of TFA and Cap etc (eg: 6-8% target of flavoring/carrier as a standalone flavor) , otherwise youāre inadvertently placing your product into a sub-group that has traditionally been regarded as āinferiorā by the community at large (on the whole).
I definitely also agree with @wvsanta and wholly appreciate the fact that Walt is at least trying to do something the industry definitely needs when no one else has (on this scale) yet!
To that end, they definitely have earned much respect and appreciation of many in the community that are sensitive to pg.
So that said, I think my summation would be that āmore fine tuning is in orderā on Waltās part should he choose to come more inline with what the community has been trained by his industry predecessors to expect.
@Walt_RealFlavors Speaking only for myself, I think youāre trying to do great things, and itās appreciated! Very much so! However please donāt dismiss the point of what @SthrnMixer was trying to convey. Itās valid (in intent), and this is one of my āfortunate moments of clarityā as more often than not, I mean the same (and often express it in much the same way Sthrn did above) but all too often I have the same frustration in being able to convey my thoughts.
I apologize if I inaccurately read things or spoke for subject matter out of context. But this is was what I took from the exchange above.
I hope it helps both sides to see the other a bit more clearly. If not, well, at least the above represents *my side. Lol
All the best,
Sprks
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