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Food for thought..?


#62

So what is gained by nag screens? ElR is about the free exchange of information, ideas and recipes an I for one would not like to see it changed but because ELR free exchange of information, ideas and recipes you are all entitled to an opinion on it.


#63

I like this.

We could do a flavor Captcha… Please click all the percentages that are too high… /s


#64

There is a reason people copy paste flavor notes. If the flavor gets deleted from that persons flavor stash the notes do as well.


#65

And that’s why people keep saying it could use an update… but it’s still the best tool we have available to my knowledge.
I don’t mind notes being duplicated or combined by others. It’s not like there are usually so many notes that it becomes a problem. More people should make use of the flavor notes so that everything becomes available in 1 place (and the duplicate flavors don’t help with this either). Now I need to search the flavor notes (more often than not multiple entries per flavor), the forums, reddit, google for them…

Having things in order, having proper etiquette and not just letting everybody do their own thing on the site would help in more than one area. I’m not saying that my way is the best way or that there’s only one way to achieve this, but it would be good if there’s at least something that will make people think about it and adhere to whatever that way would be.

It’s not about restricting people from publishing anything, it’s about restricting people from making a mess, making it more difficult than necessary for themselves and others.


#66

I kind of agree, I’m not afraid that they would revert back to cigarettes, but if someone has put time and effort into creating a recipe, is proud of their baby and want to share it with the world, it seem very rude to tell them it is garbage :face_with_raised_eyebrow: Worst case scenario they might be put of DIY, where we should be encouraging them instead.

And who knows, taste differs, there might be others that find it is a great recipe and/or can use it for inspiration for creating a great recipe.

My problem is not with subpar recipes or recipes made by beginners, my problem is with the countless copies, public single flavour tests and publishing unfinished recipes. When someone publishes the exact same recipe 20 times, presumably every bloody single time they mix a new batch, it is hard to view as anything but spam :frowning_face:

Not a bad idea. Requiring that a recipe has notes before you can publish it, is relative unobtrusive and harmless, but still requires just a little bit more effort that unchecking a checkbox.


#67

Yeah, I agree.


#68

If you search for a Strawberry Milkshake recipe you find 16 pages with 382 recipes. Within those I quickly spotted 10 recipes for Bananaberry Milkshake plus more with alternate spelling variations. I noticed one has the pink banner ‘This recipe is a copy of: VTNW Bananaberry shake’.

Ergo, 2.5% of all strawberry milkshake recipes from a search are a copy of 1 discontinued eliquid brand’s recipe posted on reddit as follows:

Recipes for discontinued blends – Vapor Trails NW self.DIY_eJuice
Submitted 3 years ago * by vapor_trails_nw
Hey, everyone! First off, mods, of this needs to be moved- go for it! I am not sure if it is cool to post this on the main page, so do what you need to do!

So, we have discontinued EVERY flavor that has known acetoin content, and as promised, we are releasing the recipes for everyone to enjoy on their own. My only request is that if these flavors are re-sold, please do not use the names that we had for them, or our company name.

Bananaberry Milkshake
10% Banana Cream (TFA)
8% Strawberry ripe (TFA)
3% Sweet Cream (TFA)
1% Dairy (TFA)

Should they all have the pink banner. The one posted second has the banner along with the link to reddit- which the first recipe does not cite.


#69

When creating a topic here the forum suggests if a similar topic already exists on the right side of my screen. Would it be possible to have such a mechanism question a person before they post a recipe that is relatively identical to another (±1 flavor…)?

One example could be adding Blueberry Wild to NotCharlesManson’s Royal Butterscotch and calling it Royal Blue Butterscotch. Here a screen might pop up when you go to post asking if you wanted to post the recipe publicly, make a comment on the recipe you adapted it from or simply add it to your private recipes.


#70

The best recipe I’ve found for a while now:


#71

@Eigengrau Perhaps it’s not the amount of time a person has been on ELR but what they are posting period. In the music world a 15 sec sample of another’s work in yours requires permission. In the art world, if you change 15% of a work it is considered significant and it’s your original art.

Example: I have a Herb Ritts B/W Calvin Klein ectochrome that was used in a Gannett Outdoor Bus Shelter campaign. I put glass over it and used dry erase markers to make a stained glass effect on the ad featuring Marky Mark. Herb Ritts & Wahlberg were paid by Calvin. Calvin lost rights to the artwork when it went to Gannett (where I worked) and ownership of those ad materials became mine when the publishing company handed it to me. But that only gives me the right to display it at home or sell it. When I significantly adapted the original and took a new photo of it, that photo became my original artwork. To cover my ‘rear’ before using it, I contacted Leverage Management (Wahlberg’s people) and they agreed my ‘Markered Glass’ was my property and could be used in any way I saw fit… but the original b/w that I had could not be used for commercial purposes.

To apply that same logic let’s look at http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/16312
Arnie’s Pizzeria has 14% flavoring from 4 ingredient’s (nic & pg/vg I’ll leave out of the equation). What changes made to Arnie’s pizza could make it Ray’s Pizza vs Ray’s Original Pizza or Famous Ray’s Original Pizza?

Obviously the music sample theory wouldn’t be useful. But the art world’s might. The question we need to consider is it the number of ingredients that must change or the total ratio of all ingredients. Add 1 ingredient and you made a 20% change. But what if it was only 0.5% of Flavorah’s basil? Might have a significant change in taste but really it’s just a variant of the original and should be left for the comments section. It would require a 2.1% difference from the 14% to make it an original work of art.

If you added 2% Mushroom Porchino (FA) & 0.5% Basil (FLV) you reach the benchmark of a 15%+ change to the original recipe. At this point I think you have successfully created an artisan pizza and should be able to make it public with whatever name you give it.


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Here is the ad example noted above. I’ll skip the B/W pic, below is my photo (sorry Calvin- cropped your logo off the bottom) and a way I was able to use it (here as a greeting card) legally without infringing on any rights (yet also able to cite my source material). I think this is a good application of how someone might post a recipe and what they should include in the notes section.


#72

I agree with the frustrations of sifting through recipes that are single flavor tests (you can find that out elsewhere like in mixer’s flavor notes), recipes that are copies of someone else’s with a percentage change, brand change, etc.

I’m not sure a time frame of 2-3 months is a guarantee. I’ve been here longer than that and just privately published two recipes. One I created and one of a friend’s so I could figure out a oneshot. Not sure if I’ll publish my own creation or not. Even if I end up liking it and using it for an ADV, it doesn’t mean that others will feel the same. On the other hand, if some of the mixers here held back like that I wouldn’t have had the benefit of learning from their recipes that have become ADVs for me. It’s a dilemma, for me, anyway.

I’m learning to diy for myself, so I can chase after that Holy Grail of flavor that keeps eluding me. If I stumble upon something else along my journey that turns out to be good (IMO) should I share it? This brings up the subject of subjective taste again. I’m not even sure I know what that means anymore. How do you say to someone that 20% of a flavor in their recipe is over the top? Maybe that’s what their taste buds need, lol.

Then there’s the reality of monitoring 1000’s of recipes! Wish it could be done, but how? And, your right, is it fair? Your “Food for Thought” is a good question and one that could inspire long essays. I look forward to reading more replies on this.


#73

That’s an idea! They have that feature on How-To Geek Discussion forum. But it’s always a good idea to check it out because sometimes it’s not always that similar to what you have to say. Obviously, a software thing.


#74

Unless the laws have changed, it was every 8 bars. You could copy up to 8 consecutive bars of another writer’s music as long as you changed it after that. Whether that takes 15 secs is contingent upon the meter, of course. I don’t have the brains to figure out how 8 bars of music translates to percentages within recipes. I’m confident that you or someone else could. And I can see I’ve already prompted the sidebar warning because of my copious replies. Time to go…


#75

I raised my hand! One of the first things I did when I came here was to look for people with similar tastes as mine and how experienced they were. Then I tried some of their recipes. I bookmarked the ones that worked for me and a few others that looked interesting. Then I chose to follow those mixers so I could ask some questions, etc. This helped me to avoid a lot of headaches. Just like a musician learns music from transcribing other’s solos, compositions, you can learn from making others’ recipes. I hope this helps some beginners.


#76

Yes, please. I have just one recipe (private) and I had trouble posting it in a thread so other mixers could help me with it. I was able to post the link, though, so all was not lost.


#77

I like this a lot and I’m sure it would make me giggle to be questioned, "Are you sure…? Like I’ve already stated, I have one recipe (private) and I wonder if I should ever make it public. What’s the criteria? The more I vape it, the more I like it. Should I share? It might be good for a beginner, like me, with just 4 flavors. What if I modify it later and it becomes better, imo? What do I do then?


#78

If you created a recipe that you like a lot and think it’s worth for others to try, I’d say publish it.
I just think that most people will expect you to be able to say something about it (notes, steeping time, …), but sharing your own creations is what this site is for. That is not retweeting others’ recipes and making copy after copy of the same recipe, or even taking credit for someone else’s creation.
The amount of flavors doesn’t matter. Some juices with maybe just 2 or 3 flavors are amazingly good and others with maybe 8 or 10 flavors are a chemical mess. If you publish it, you can do with it what you want. Change it, make a 2nd version of it separately or even take it back to your private list (though other people might still have an adaption/copy of yours).


#79

Thank you, that’s helpful. I just don’t want to add to the mess/confusion that members are concerned about. Being happy or proud with your own creation is one thing but contributing to the community in a meaningful way is another.


#80

Actually we are both wrong. There is no set measure in the units of bars or seconds that is the allowed that which would make your derivative work original. I also wrote that the music analogy would not be useful and this is especially true for recipes. I’ll get into that in a momemnt but first a graphic illustration where we just started going.
Overview:

The source for copyright info
https://www.copyright.gov

th

None of this really applies to what we are doing on ELR for this is primarily an educational website offering tools for people to create and share recipes. I apologize for falling asleep at the wheel.


#81

I agree people should publish recipes they think other might want to see. We should not stifle the creative process. For me what people add in the notes is a major factor that makes it a helpful educational tool.

ELR’s Star rating of recipes is one tool people use when doing a search. But there are many recipes that are stellar which only have 3 people who have given it any stars. I would like to see a new option where I can search for a recipe by the number of COMMENTS made. I find the discourse in the comments section to be most helpful because it usually includes how others enjoyed it when they made it & suggested flavor swaps.

Good example: http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/526833

Duplicate/similar recipes without any new insights are what I would call clutter- is it already posted or is your recipe a trivial rearrangement of what is already known? I think a unique recipe on ELR offers something which isn’t a common sense approach. Is it really not obvious to try the combination? Likely no. Users should need to have some peculiarity to have a recipe made public and their notes hopefully discuss that in some way.

As far as the law goes (and I am not a legal expert), not much is applicable but recipe law is in alignment with what you would expect people to be able to say about the recipe (notes, steeping time,…).

  • A recipe is a statement of the ingredients and procedure required for making a dish of food. A mere listing of ingredients or contents, or a simple set of directions, is uncopyrightable. [same logic applies to drinks and e-liquid - but you can patent something with a trademarked name that uses a branded ingredient]

  • In contrast, a recipe that creatively explains or depicts how or why to perform a particular activity may be copyrightable. A registration for a recipe may cover the written description or explanation of a process that appears in the work, as well as any photographs or illustrations that are owned by the applicant. However, the registration will not cover the list of ingredients that appear in each recipe, the underlying process for making the dish, or the resulting dish itself