So this topic has me feeling a bit curious. So i came across one flavor (TPA Strawberry Ripe) that always seems to mute after a month of aging, just…POOF…gone. Now i understand from what others with experience in this have told me is that it is because it contains ethyl maltol which does have the tendency to mute flavors over time. I was wondering if anyone else had some insight on a few things. A. If this is actually true (which im sure it is), B. how much (%) is needed to actually start the muting process over time?, C. If this is the sole reason for flavor muting or is there other possible culprits as well?, D. Is it just TPA Strawberry Ripe or are there other flavors that have been reported to do this as well?
Any advice and insight would be greatly appreciated because i would like to know the reasons so i can avoid them in the future. Thank you all kindly.
Here are all the TPA Flavors using EM. Quite a bit of flavors use it, although it seems only certain flavors really lose potency like Strawberry does. I have noticed that when I use EM as an ingredient in a mix, it mutes for me, but when using a good bit of flavors that have it, there is no issue. I seem to get muting with quite a lot of Strawberry flavors, not just TPA. Strawberry Ripe seems to just use Maltol, but it may be what mutes it more than EM. It also uses Pineapple Ketone, which not a lot of TPA flavors use, only a handful, but whether that plays into the muting, I don’t know.
I hope this helps a little. I haven’t really had an issue with other flavors really muting for me personally, but some flavors do cause a bit of flavor fatigue for me.
Thank you so much Silly i appreciate your feedback! Yea it seems that this single flavor alone is the only one ive ever experienced muting with, I have had experience with many flavors from many companies with no issue unless i get the tounge of desolation lol. I dont believe i have personally had any other strawberry flavor mute on me, but then again idk if i ever paid too much attention and now i usually layer multiple strawberries in my recipes so i think that helps a lot with muting and also deliciousness but myself and my customers dont leave the juice long enough for it to happen lol we just vape it quickly (cant help it) lmao. ill just have to find a better system when it comes to ethyl maltol in general i suppose, which sounds overwhelming honestly. Those other suggestions may be a contributor as well ill have to look into that. Thank you again! If anyone else has any more insight id appreciate it.
I wouldn’t always point to muting or fading. Sometimes after a mix is fully steeped/aged other flavors pull forward blocking other profiles.
This is mainly why people recommend testing a mix at 3days/1week/2/3 and so on.
Personally I haven’t done that for a long time. I build my recipes based on steeping for 4 weeks or more. Vaping a mix at one week may give me some off notes considering that strawberry will fade a bit and a custard will pull forward.
As for strawberry this is also why folks mix with mote than one strawberry. Because certain element of strawberry ripe tpa will fade and can be boosted with fa or a cap or an inw.
Best Recipe I’ve personally ever Vaped. I totally lost the Strawberry at around 3-4 weeks. Then suddenly at week 6, Boom !! The Strawberries are spot on and play so well with Banana Cream & Custard. Craziest thing ever !! Fast forward to today. I don’t know where the strawberry went, or how it came back. But, Ken quoted a Tom Petty lyric “The waiting,is the hardest part” he was dead on it.
Yeah, strawberries seem to be be notorious for fade. I’m now waiting to see how my MF strawberry steeps. i have high hopes of that one!
I have heard it said (of MF in particular) that some their flavours fade out, temprarily, after 3-4 weeks steeping. Then they come back with a bang just as @whosyourdaddy described.
Hmm. It looks like it isn’t only MF flavours do that! Just that MF afficionados are more likely to notice that effect , because we expect a long wait before the flavour really blooms (but, still, we’re human enough to taste too early)
I wonder how many mixers have given up too soon on how many mixes, and flushed their juice down the sink before it ever really had chance to shine?
Very intersting topic. Looking forward to reading more observations.
My answer may be somewhat skewed. Strawberry flavors and I just don’t mix well, I taste green or white tart flesh, no matter what. There is one I tolerate well, PUR Strawberry Marshmallow Cereal, maybe because the SB is just this tiny fraction of the flavor, I get more grain from it anyway.
i just found a half-vaped bottle of RF (SC) strawberry @ 2.5% , mixed in July, last year, in the back of a drawer. In the interests of scientific enquiry, I vaped a bit of it. Yeah it’s faded. Big surprise, hmm? The amazing thing is: it was still recognisable as strawberry! Now I’m gonna go clean my coil and rinse my mouth out.
@jay210 thank you for your input i appreciate you. im going to continue with my research to see if these other issues may be contributing, if anyone else feels like doing the same research to help myself and others who are also curious about this frustrating (freak of nature) lol, that would be awesome and maybe we can create a sub thread based on this topic in paticular.
Couple of things got mixed up (It’s our nature )
What happens to our mixes/flavours:
1) Muting: it happens almost immediately, usually EM is the culprit, when it’s overdosed it’s known to mute the mix… but why? I only used 1%… Answer: Manufacturers already put Etylmalthol in their flavors, when we add our percentage, it just adds EM to the existing and it mutes the mix. Watch Cotton Candy… it’s EM!
2) Fading: a) Oversteeping; Custards Creams etc… we all know that they have to steep to get the best out of them… but for how long?? Usually 2/3 weeks dependes fromn the manufacturer/percentage used, what happens after that?? They start fading no mistake they will NOT improve (somebody might just like it better just because it’s not as strong…) , usually vanilla is the first to go down the drain, followed by the cream… then we’ve got fruits, but I’ll talk about it later, so…don’t oversteep
b) Volatile flavours; e.g. Strawberry has got more than 600 molecules to give it THAT taste, that means: not easy to replicate unless organic, but even then… out of 600 how many will fade in the process, when we open the bottle, when we shake it, put in a hot bath (don’t do it…) stir it… and so forth. something definitely will FADE no mistake! The same goes with fruits generally, don’t oversteep they will fade…
Overdosed: We could go on forever with this one…
We added to much flavour, too many flavours that will start fighting or trying to overpower each other or cancelling each other, you end up (if you’re lucky) with that one single taste that won the battle… Absynthe, Cinnamon and so forth the battle is over, they won.
If you’re not lucky? Desert! They all killed each other and you’re left with nothing in your hands… do not add too many flavours (I’m not a believer that 20 odd flavours improve the mix, I love layering, but with brain switched on) or too much flavour it just doesn’t work…
I Hope this gives you an answer, but the discussion could really be long… better do it in front of a (or more) good pint(s)!
When i started out one of the first things i did was make 400ml of a Grant’sVanillaCustard clone.
Because i thought waiting 2-4 weeks for 10ml was just absurd.
Just kind of forgot about it, six months later it was unvapable. Still have around 150ml left and it sucks.
Can’t get myself to throw out a custard that’s been steeping for years.
It all comes down to;
How much EM the flavorings contain. Very few flavors doesn’t contain at least some EM.
How concentrated is the flavoring.
What flavoring it is.
Lemons and Cap Funnel Cake also fades like there’s no tomorrow.
I wonder how much of that degrading has to do with the flavors, and how much with the added nicotine…
Concentrates with 0-nic tend to keep a lot longer I hear.
When I first started vaping, I always heard that the shelve life of liquids is about 2 years. Well I can’t say that’s my opinion about it. Usually everything older than 6 months I don’t enjoy vaping anymore, although there are a few exceptions.
I totally agree with what @Iv3shf said, oversteeping and fading are real things and if something needs a very long steep (more than 3 or 4 weeks), it just means you used too much flavoring. Especially the fruity flavors are very volatile and will fade first.
When it comes to overdosing, so if you want a stronger flavor than what a certain brand is giving you, you’re better off finding some supporting flavors and use a lower %.
Fading and muting is also the reason I’ll never make 120ml batches or more. I’d rather make less but more often and always have a fresh tasting juice to vape.
For whoever wants to take it further an interesting post that talks about volatile molecules:
I’d take it further and not only talk about the chemical parts or taking the alcohol away, but it also takes some of the taste away IMHO.
Nicotine is another topic, it’s true over time it just goes rancid…
Talking about long steeping we have also to consider some tobaccos, some particular brands have a deep steeping curve, you wait a month then after that it starts going down… to go up again… after 6 months… (Vaporcave)
That might be true of some brands of some flavours, but, is much too sweeping a statement. IMO.
Medicine Flower, for example, work best extemely low concentrations (somewhere between 0,3- and 1% , with a few exceptions ) and yet most of them require an extremely long steep. And they are “upsteepers” , to use @Pro_Vapes ’ term. That is they only get better and stronger with time.
That includes many MF fruit flavours.
Your statement above completely contradicts these observations.
It’s not a science unfortunately, is something I didn’t purposely mention in my post to avoid been too long.
A lot depends on manufacturers and "How they do it"
Consider that organic reacts and behave differently from synthetic, different companies do the same flavour with different compounds, then we have to start thinking if we did it with high PG or High VG, with high or low nic, so many combination that you’ll never have a "Truth" you’ll end up with a guideline for the manufacturers and mix you (or me) use most, and might not be valid for another … RF for example (the carrier is VG if I remember correctly…)
I told you it’s one of those… late night discussions to be done in front of a drink…
Since we’re talking about the muting effects of EM here… I have a question that, for some bizarre reason, I never actually tried but sounds simple
If you mix a juice and find that EM is muting the flavors, does it help to just add base liquid, dropping the total EM % and thereby regaining the taste from the other flavors? Or once EM muted your other flavors, is the damage done forever?
Is this a fact that it happens instantly?
I’ve made a juice a while back and someone told me the EM was going to kill the flavor in about 2 weeks time and leaving out the sweetener would keep the flavor.
Initially it had really good flavor but now, about 2 weeks later, it does seem that I’ve lost the majority of the flavor from that juice. Seems a little fast for regular fading.
)
