i just found a half-vaped bottle of RF (SC) strawberry @ 2.5% , mixed in July, last year, in the back of a drawer. In the interests of scientific enquiry, I vaped a bit of it. Yeah it’s faded. Big surprise, hmm? The amazing thing is: it was still recognisable as strawberry! Now I’m gonna go clean my coil and rinse my mouth out.
@jay210 thank you for your input i appreciate you. im going to continue with my research to see if these other issues may be contributing, if anyone else feels like doing the same research to help myself and others who are also curious about this frustrating (freak of nature) lol, that would be awesome and maybe we can create a sub thread based on this topic in paticular.
Thanks to all of you for your help!
Couple of things got mixed up (It’s our nature )
What happens to our mixes/flavours:
1) Muting: it happens almost immediately, usually EM is the culprit, when it’s overdosed it’s known to mute the mix… but why? I only used 1%… Answer: Manufacturers already put Etylmalthol in their flavors, when we add our percentage, it just adds EM to the existing and it mutes the mix. Watch Cotton Candy… it’s EM!
a) Oversteeping; Custards Creams etc… we all know that they have to steep to get the best out of them… but for how long?? Usually 2/3 weeks dependes fromn the manufacturer/percentage used, what happens after that?? They start fading no mistake they will NOT improve (somebody might just like it better just because it’s not as strong…) , usually vanilla is the first to go down the drain, followed by the cream… then we’ve got fruits, but I’ll talk about it later, so…don’t oversteep
b) Volatile flavours; e.g. Strawberry has got more than 600 molecules to give it THAT taste, that means: not easy to replicate unless organic, but even then… out of 600 how many will fade in the process, when we open the bottle, when we shake it, put in a hot bath (don’t do it…) stir it… and so forth. something definitely will FADE no mistake! The same goes with fruits generally, don’t oversteep they will fade…
Overdosed: We could go on forever with this one…
We added to much flavour, too many flavours that will start fighting or trying to overpower each other or cancelling each other, you end up (if you’re lucky) with that one single taste that won the battle… Absynthe, Cinnamon and so forth the battle is over, they won.
If you’re not lucky? Desert! They all killed each other and you’re left with nothing in your hands… do not add too many flavours (I’m not a believer that 20 odd flavours improve the mix, I love layering, but with brain switched on) or too much flavour it just doesn’t work…
I Hope this gives you an answer, but the discussion could really be long… better do it in front of a (or more) good pint(s)!
When i started out one of the first things i did was make 400ml of a Grant’sVanillaCustard clone.
Because i thought waiting 2-4 weeks for 10ml was just absurd.
Just kind of forgot about it, six months later it was unvapable. Still have around 150ml left and it sucks.
Can’t get myself to throw out a custard that’s been steeping for years.
It all comes down to;
How much EM the flavorings contain. Very few flavors doesn’t contain at least some EM.
How concentrated is the flavoring.
What flavoring it is.
Lemons and Cap Funnel Cake also fades like there’s no tomorrow.
I wonder how much of that degrading has to do with the flavors, and how much with the added nicotine…
Concentrates with 0-nic tend to keep a lot longer I hear.
When I first started vaping, I always heard that the shelve life of liquids is about 2 years. Well I can’t say that’s my opinion about it. Usually everything older than 6 months I don’t enjoy vaping anymore, although there are a few exceptions.
I totally agree with what @Iv3shf said, oversteeping and fading are real things and if something needs a very long steep (more than 3 or 4 weeks), it just means you used too much flavoring. Especially the fruity flavors are very volatile and will fade first.
When it comes to overdosing, so if you want a stronger flavor than what a certain brand is giving you, you’re better off finding some supporting flavors and use a lower %.
Fading and muting is also the reason I’ll never make 120ml batches or more. I’d rather make less but more often and always have a fresh tasting juice to vape.
For whoever wants to take it further an interesting post that talks about volatile molecules:
I’d take it further and not only talk about the chemical parts or taking the alcohol away, but it also takes some of the taste away IMHO.
Nicotine is another topic, it’s true over time it just goes rancid…
Talking about long steeping we have also to consider some tobaccos, some particular brands have a deep steeping curve, you wait a month then after that it starts going down… to go up again… after 6 months… (Vaporcave)
It never ends, does it?
That might be true of some brands of some flavours, but, is much too sweeping a statement. IMO.
Medicine Flower, for example, work best extemely low concentrations (somewhere between 0,3- and 1% , with a few exceptions ) and yet most of them require an extremely long steep. And they are “upsteepers” , to use @Pro_Vapes ’ term. That is they only get better and stronger with time.
That includes many MF fruit flavours.
Your statement above completely contradicts these observations.
It’s not a science unfortunately, is something I didn’t purposely mention in my post to avoid been too long.
A lot depends on manufacturers and "How they do it"
Consider that organic reacts and behave differently from synthetic, different companies do the same flavour with different compounds, then we have to start thinking if we did it with high PG or High VG, with high or low nic, so many combination that you’ll never have a "Truth" you’ll end up with a guideline for the manufacturers and mix you (or me) use most, and might not be valid for another … RF for example (the carrier is VG if I remember correctly…)
I told you it’s one of those… late night discussions to be done in front of a drink…
You’re probably right, I have no experience with MF, only with CAP, TPA, FA, FLV, INW, SolubArome, OOO and FW.
I’ll make sure to grab a good beer tonight and continue reading this thread
Since we’re talking about the muting effects of EM here… I have a question that, for some bizarre reason, I never actually tried but sounds simple
If you mix a juice and find that EM is muting the flavors, does it help to just add base liquid, dropping the total EM % and thereby regaining the taste from the other flavors? Or once EM muted your other flavors, is the damage done forever?
Is this a fact that it happens instantly?
I’ve made a juice a while back and someone told me the EM was going to kill the flavor in about 2 weeks time and leaving out the sweetener would keep the flavor.
Initially it had really good flavor but now, about 2 weeks later, it does seem that I’ve lost the majority of the flavor from that juice. Seems a little fast for regular fading.
When I said “instantly” I was joking, but for my point of view a couple of days is… instantly.
As a Shake and vape it’s a winner, after a couple of days/week, It starts blending/steeping and starts nulling some flavours.
Once it’s done it’s done, unfortunately not much you can do about it, I tried adding a single flavour to increase the head note, but again… it worked for a couple of days then it started again.
I don’t know the “truth” but that’s what happened to me.
We’d have to check the MSDS on each flavour and see if it’s got EM, but studying this,I’ve a sensation that it could also be the Maltol itself (e.g. Bav Cream).
The end of the story could be that as a rule of thumb, too many additives can/will mute the mix…
But we all already know that…
This is an interesting question. I suppose it might work…? Idk… But now I want to test it!
I suppose you also have to add a couple of the other flavors of the juice then. Dropping a 3% to a 1.5% EM for example, you’ll have to double your base liquid and your other flavors will also halve in strength.
Thank you Frank I’m sorry it took me so long to reply but I appreciate your info. Ya know the overstepping thing I had a feeling about because I’ve always felt like my flavors dulled after a month n a half because I usually don’t use more than 5% of anything, so I thought to myself steeping can only go so far but I figured I may just be crazy but it turns out it is the others who are crazy putting 20% strawberry in then letting it steep forever and saying that that is what helped…no…your flavor faded enough so u can handle it…you just wasted flavoring really lmao
Is there any way I can find out what flavors have how much EM? I know TPA has spreadsheets of their contents but is there any way for other brands or how to read TPA sheets? Also why was it unvapeable NCO? I heard custard just gets better as much as time passes? Thanks I appreciate you
I want to thank everyone for their info and knowledge on this topic and I’m sorry it took so long to reply, I’ve been working hard on my new recipes (although quite a few are private) lol I appreciate you all thank you again!
Not really. It is pretty common knowledge in diy that TPA Strawberry Ripe, just as a example has alot of EM.
Not alot of flavors have as much EM as Strawberry Ripe so this flavor has become pretty notorious for it. This is probably the only flavor you need to be real worried about muting with.
What does your total flavoring percentage usually land at? 10-15%? And do you use alot of Strawberry Ripe?
5% of TPA Strawberry Ripe would be able to mute most mixes so this is why i’m asking…
After 6 months steep it just seemed really overflavored. Was supposed to be a creamy custard and turned out to be the harshest eliquid i ever vaped. Oversteeping turns your eliquid really harsh i learned from that.
Yeah me too, but oversteeping is a real thing. 1-2 months for your tobacco and custards max, otherwise it’s the recipe you need to fix.
I’m glad i was able to help.
It depends on the ingredient. Not every strawberry fades or gets stronger/sweeter/milder/harsher etc. Same with custards and creams, percentages do matter and vary by manufacturer, as well as higher VG or flavors based on VG will take longer steeping time which leads to flavors staying intact longer. Knowing your flavors in and out makes these things a bit easier at the end, and most people will add strawberry ripe in the last days of steeping. Just have to see what works for you I guess.
@Nco I’ve learned that it does contain more EM than the usual, I used to use that much Strawberry Ripe when I was ignorant to the fact that 3-4% CAP Sweet Strawberry and 1.5-2% Strawberry Ripe is n amazing layer but only for small batches seeing as strawberry ripe mutes flavor and sweet strawberry fades, which is unfortunate because those two were made for each other when it comes to taste, there’s always fkin something right?! Lol my %s land anywhere from 5%-30% depending on many factors, usually that high % is a shake and vape but I usually don’t SnV my average I’d say is 10-15% I suppose yea. I understand now, kinda like too much of anything is a bad thing with the or steeping thing haha that’s a univeresal law even outside of mixing