Wow, I feel like I’m in serious trouble with this. I’ve been reading flavor notes for years, and I’ve felt somewhat left out when I’ve read them. I may as well be reading something written by a sommelier. Between the “mouthfeel” and the rind and seeds of a watermelon and the total dissection of citrus fruits, I’m at a loss.
Yes, but to create this stone (or my very own “One Shot”) I’d first have to have a recipe that I can taste, which is something you kinda side-stepped. If I’m looking at a recipe on ELR and it’s not strong enough, flavor-wise, should I increase the concentrates by an equal %, or am I going to have to figure out which ones will have to be increased?
I’m really feeling like I should have been doing less lurking these past years and more experimenting with single flavors. Time is at a premium, as I’m not sure how much longer I can order juice from my vendor. Also, I just discovered I don’t have as much Nic as I thought. I have limited storage, so I had to buy accordingly. (Nobody is selling Nic anymore, right?)
That’s really sad/depressing that a vape shop doesn’t keep current on vape-related news. I would’ve thought being a member of CASAA was a given for shops like that.
Hrmmmm. I’ll try to hit it from a different angle.
By “maintain the ratio”, I’m trying to say that the relationship between the flavors in the recipe is the most important.
Example:
6% strawberry
2% cream
A three to one ratio. (3pts strawberry, 1pt cream)
Let’s say that you’re making a 30ml of the above. That’s 8% total flavor.
If you want to increase it to 12% total flavor, you need to add 50% more of each.
Which becomes:
9% strawberry
3% cream
So, while you’ve increased flavor by 50%, you’re still observing the 3:1 ratio.
The thing is, you may not need a 50% bump.
You may only need a 20% bump. Or 28% bump.
Where a stone comes in handy when trying to zero-in on your overall flavor needs for a recipe is:
Let’s say you make a stone out of the 1st example recipe above.
(Bearing in mind, the ratio is the most important factor…)
18ml of strawberry.
6ml of cream.
You now have 24ml of stone to work with.
So, we’ve maintained the 3:1 ratio, and now you can go to testing what strength you need for the recipe in the final mix.
If you wanted to make the following recipe (at the listed 8%), all you have to do is add 2.4ml of your stone, to your 70pg Base/nic solution.
Voila! 8% finished mix.
The key is: pay attention to the “Flavor Total” line at the bottom of the recipe.
(you also need to save the original recipe, before you can go back and adjust the overall flavor percentage)
Click the wrench (on your saved recipe), click “adjust total flavor percentage”…
To recap, we started with a basic recipe.
Made 24ml of stone (according to the recipe’s ratio).
Used 2.4 ml in a test.
Used 3.6 ml in a test.
Used 4.5 ml in a test.
So we’ve used 10.5ml of the stone, and you still have room to play for more testing. Or, to use in the final mixes when you’ve figured out what your final mix percentage needs to be!
Aigh! LOL Perhaps this mess is due to someone on another forum who told me that I wouldn’t be able to increase a recipe’s ratio the way you’re saying, which I would describe “as a whole.” (I’m not including Nic/PG/VG, as their totals are dependent on the final volume, not my stupid palate). I was told that I would have to adjust flavors individually, the thought of which has filled me with horror. (I’m prone to anxiety, which makes me shut down, hence the lurking and total lack of DIYing these past years).
If I can start off with any recipe on ELR and then fiddle w/ the total ratios of just the concentrates as you described, then that would be fan-freaking-tastic!
btw, you didn’t say if anyone is still selling Nic in the US. I’m guessing the answer is “no,” but I thought I would ask.
Thank you, also, for being so incredibly over-the-top patient in your explanations. I have the feeling if it hadn’t been for that other person mucking up the works, this would be a non-issue.
Well, the numbers for your base mix are going to vary a little bit from what they “should be” ideally (while testing)…
Meaning that instead of being 70%pg, you may end up at 65%, or 75%… But honestly, it’s not going to be enough to matter (for most folks) while testing to find out your starting point.
Once you know you should be in the (let’s say) 18% range (of flavor) for a particular recipe, you can always re-create that recipe from scratch with the 18% numbers and see where you land on the actual PG ratio.
I’m under the impression that there are. But where they are able to ship to has decreased. I’d suggest watching the vape mail ban thread, as well as the good deals thread to start.
I’m pretty sure someone just mentioned nic being available in the “Vape Mail” thread too in the last two days.
But either way, you need to get high behind on that, because after the 26th, you’re almost definitely screwed for having it shipped.
It’s going to become ‘walk-in’ only (for the most part) and that’s when/if/and where you get lucky enough to find a local shop willing to sell just nic (under the new regulations).
No need to worry excessively about it: panic > stress > cancer = premature death
I have all my 100mg/mL nicotine base in the cupboard under the kitchen sink and I’ve got ample room for it in my freezer - I had it in there and removed it simply to be contrary, because everyone else was freaking right the fuck out about their nic supply going ‘bad’ I opted to leave my 500mL bottles of freebase and salt at room temperature, in a cupboard and though the oldest of these is a 500mL bottle of freebase that’s around 6-7 months old now and about 60% full, it’s not changed taste or flavour in the slightest in that time and we’ve just had summer here.
Salt nicotine is also meant to be more stable at room temp, but I just figured someone should try leaving their nicotine base out the freezer because as it is, almost nobody seems to even have even considered it and well, if everybody has all their nic in the freezer how will anyone know if there was even any need to keep it cold in the first place?
The 60% (working bottle I guess that’d be though the bottle is just the one it came in) has changed colour slightly - it’s not as light pink as it was when I opened it - but the unopened freebase hasn’t changed colour whatsoever from the day it was shipped, and the salt nic,… well oddly that’s a super feint yellow colour when shipped, but that also hasn’t changed colour or taste at all.
Even a sales rep from Nicotine River stated KUH-WOTE:
So your nicotine content should remain intact regardless how you store it, with heat, air and light causing oxitization, but she doesn’t mention or expand on how much heat/air/light affects nicotine or how fast, and I would never trust what a sales-person tells me about their product expiring anyway, since all our nicotine vendors would logically have to have made an absolute killing from all the panic-ordering they’ve been processing.
Of all the accounts and posts I’ve ever read, nobody has ever taken the simple step of actually testing the nicotine content of ‘degraded’ base, which is odd given simple test kits can be ordered for less than $10, with people only saying the ‘taste’ turns bad, which I have not so far found to be the case at all.
But ‘taste is subjective’
Anyway, I figure I’ll leave them where they are to find out if all the freezer purchasing, double-triple, QUADRUPLE bagging and tagging and taping and argon gassing was ever worth the effort or simply a monkey-see-monkey-do case of mass hysteria - everyone leaping on-board without any questioning whether they even need to.
Six months in: slightly darker shade of pink, but no difference in taste at all.
There’s also no need to panic if you can’t order 22 gallons of nicotine base either though it depends of course on how much you use, the Vapocolypse Calculater told me that a 500mL bottle (mixing @ 6mg/mL) would last me a year, but now I also mix 18mg/mL of salt nic base with my mixes (as well as the 6mg/mL freebase), which will obviously chew-up a lot more base.
Still, it may be too late to be too worried about it now if vendors in the States have all but stopped shipping but of course if you can order nic base somewhere, you should do it now and worry about storage later, though as I said somewhere up top I’m Australian so we’ve got until October to get our stash sorted out so I’m not worried.
Its been tested over the years and eventually FB will oxidize and lose its potency …What we do know is that keeping nicotine in a freezer will allow you to keep Nicotine for multiple years …
But do we really know that not keeping it a freezer won’t allow that?
Like, light could be more damaging than temperature or air, and I’ve only seen half-arsed experiments to date that are focused so much on the affects of whether it’s in a freezer or not it’s mm yeah - I’ve never seen a truly comprehensive test for all three of those factors (light AND temp AND air) at all - it’s always “Should you freeze”.
That year or so test we all saw a few weeks ago from the dood who stored multiple bottles of base in vs out the freezer, like - just the number of times that fn fridge door was opened could’ve done more to change the colour of the base than anything to do with temp.
It’s weird to me the way everyone’s convinced they know, when there was no serious testing of all the factors in degradation ever went on: just “This one was frozen see, it’s clear” and “This one was not frozen it’s darker so it’s rubbish!” = “Now we all KNOW all about oxidization of nicotine so everyone better go buy a buncha freezers!” ← How these tests have come across to me - all of em.
(insert hushed crowd gasping sounds here)
Clearly, freezing is better than not freezing, but the question of how much better has never been addressed at all.
I mean my freebase still tastes exactly the same to me, so will it suddenly taste rubbish in another 6 months time? And if I’m vaping it away over that 6 months, maybe it’s changing sooooo slightly that I’m just not noticing at all, in which case it makes no difference - since I’ve not noticed any changes that have happened because they’ve been soooo slow and minuscule there’s barely a difference anyway.
THAT question of ‘how much, how little, how bad after how long’ has just been completely ignored because everybody has been obsessed with the ‘tint’ of pink in the side-by-side happy-snaps of ‘test’ results.
I guess that depends on what you think is comprehensive?? Take 15 ml of your nicotine leave it out in a room unopened , then keep another bottle some where outside during the summer where its hot or where ever , keep another bottle in a freezer then titrate them all after a month or 2 you will see the difference not just in color but you the titration test will show you how much the nicotine has degraded…Color change is oxidation which means that nicotine is changing and degrading as well …There will always be those people who doubt everything I guess …You keep your investment in your room temp area but I would be careful because your govt is pretty close to fucking you all over as well
Pink ??? Actually pink isnt a sign of Nic starting to oxidize it more of a orange color …As a matter of fact some Nic has a pink hue to it and it’s normal
Not sure why you are basing anything off 6 months …Storing Nicotine in a freezer is done for long term ( years) not a few months …
Well I’ll find out first-hand myself, though so far I’m not seeing anything that’s making me regret not freezing them.
Also I’ve started buying salt instead of freebase and salt reportedly is shelf happy anyhow.
Certainly in mixes, the ones that’re ONLY salt (the stronger 50mg/mL ones) don’t darken the way freebase mixes do and stay light, well, I haven’t seen them darken yet which annoys me a bit since that’s how I’ve usually judged how long my freebase mixes have been steeping.
Because it’s already 6 months since it arrived and I cracked it open: in another 6 months, that’ll be 1 year - the length of time that dood did his freezer test for.
Yes it has been addressed…We might not know exactly how many years it will add but we do know it will allow you to store Nicotine much longer multiple years …
Remember though using glass and topping off with Argon will also secure your nicotine longer , so its not just about tossing a bottle in the freezer and your good to go…
But what if light is the most damaging of the three?
Spose if the freezer doesn’t get opened much it doesn’t matter, but that hasn’t been tested at all - that’s my point.
Just temperature - that’s always been what everyone’s been obsessed with, which means the effects of light and air have just been pft-pft’ed to the side for the most part when all three should be tested independently - air, temp and light.
Without that testing, we’ll never know whether a dark cupboard was all you ever needed: if light does more ‘damage’ or degrades the nic faster than temp or air.
That same nic base might last 30 years in only a ceramic jug - if light’s the bigger threat.
Well i dont suggest anyone stores their Nicotine in their Freezer they use in the kitchen which typically is opened a few times a day …Light , Heat and Oxygen are all things that will oxidize and degrade your Nic…Which one is worse im not sure…
If your question or point was …We dont know which element out of the three is worse …I would have agreed we dont know which is worse
I disagree …I think that you believe this because using a freezer is always suggested , however most people realize air is just as bad as heat …Storing Nic in a freezer allows you to keep your nic in a cold environment absent from light and air …We use Argon to push the oxygen out …
What if the kitchen freezer is a person’s only option, though? Then topping amber bottles with Argon and stuffing them as far back in the freezer seems to be the only choice.
Don’t really matter at this point: anyone who’s stocked-up before the mail bans has already got it stored however they’ll store it - freezer, cupboard or back garden shed, they’ll pretty much store it how it is now anyway and people who haven’t stocked up have no nicotine to be worrying about anyhow
Mo’ nic, mo’ worries
I’m less concerned too maybe, because it’s not as though nicotine is gonna go illegal - though considering we will need a doctors prescription here to buy it, I should be more worried than you lot are - it’s only a mail thing for the States after all and to fix it some entrepreneur just needs to open a retail chain that sells nicotine bases and the issue is sorted.
Here, we will need to provide whatever prescription to order or buy retail no matter where we source it…
You gotta remember DIY mixers didnt come up with these suggestions …The same practives we use are also used by the manufacturers and distributors of liquid Nicotine on a much larger and more professional scale …Every Nicotine Manufacturer and distributor keeps their Nicotine in cold storage they top the rebottled Nic off with argin then foil seal it …So at those levels these test have been done and their Science is what we base all this off…
