Thanks. I noticed that most of the posts in the beginners forum used abbreviations and as I’m relatively new to DIY I found it a little confusing.
No problem! Lars (@Daath) put together a great list of abbreviations here that I found really helpful. Maybe it will help you too. 
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Thank you so much! This will help immensely.
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I’m looking to buy a good sweetener so what is a good kind to get for sweetening my flavors? I could use some help and info.
You’ll probably wind up with a million different answers to that as everyone has their own preference. I was using TPA Cotton Candy (basically Ethyl Maltol I believe) for almost everything, but I found after awhile it muted the flavors too much. I still use it some, but I use TPA Caramel Candy for sweetening a lot more. The Master Mixer’s Tips and Tricks page on ELR gives you a good idea of what the different sweeteners are and what they do. My best suggestion is, like with most anything in this hobby, try some from different brands until you find one you like. Hope that helps and doesn’t make you more confused. 
I also use TPA Cotton Candy (EM) for sweetener but I use Marshmallow for sweetness more often than Cotton Candy. Never needed anymore sweetness than these two provide…
Ethyl Maltol is NOT a sweetener. When used, it has sweet taste to it, but by no means is it a actual “sweetener”. I use EM to balance out harsher flavors like the berries (wild blueberry & blueberry extra for example). If I use a sweetener I use TFA’s sweetener. I also have found a love for CAP’s Sweet Cream. It has no diketones in it and I like it better than TFA’s version that has diketones. I have a lot of sweet flavors ranging from vanillas, to marshmallow, to brown sugar extra. It really depends on the ‘type’ of sweet you are looking for imo. They all create a sweetness in a juice with hint of something different. As @JoJo said, search around and find what you like. I have over 7 flavors I would categorize as ‘sweeteners’ and I like the effects they all add to different juices.
Not sure why people keep saying TPA has Diketones in them. I keep looking, but have yet seen any flavors produced by TPA with it in them.
They do have a post about custard flavors and mention acetoin may have traces of the substance in it.
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html
So when people are saying Diketones, are they referring to the trace amounts of diacetly found in acetoin. Diacetyl (the bad stuff I avoid that causes popcorn lung) is my only concern for the most part, but you probably inhale more from popping a bag of popcorn in the microwave than vaping a flavor with acetoin in it for a year strait…
I get the impression that people are using the word ‘diketones’ to describe any type of custard note including diacetyl, acetoin, acetyl propionyl, and possibly butyric acid. Or, like you said Don, the possible occurrence of diacetyl when acetoin is used. Someone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
There are many flavors that TPA makes that has these diketones in them. As @JoJo said, the ‘diketones’ is the name us vapers use to refer to diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl propionyl in concentrates. If you look at the flavors from TPA @ bullcity you will see that they have a caution layer behind the logo for a lot of their concentrates. Those are all of TFA/TPA’s concentrates that contain the diketones. If you click on the flavor of choice it will also tell you this and what the trace amount in it is.
Here is also a list directly from TPA’s website, they have full MSDS sheets listed along with the ingredients in each of their concentrates. Just click on the ‘show all flavors’ button.
You’ll probably notice that you have more flavors from TPA with diketones in them than you realized.
If I’m not mistaken, diacetyl and acetyl propionyl are diketones, while acetoin and butyric acid are not…technically speaking. However, they have similar structures and properties.
There’s already a thread on this, so I’m not going to rehash everything I’ve said I believe about it.
Also, don’t think the MSDS is law when it comes to the ingredients in a flavoring. Rocket Puppy posted a good resource over at VU (sorry if linking to there is bad!) http://vapingunderground.com/threads/diacetyl-acetyl-propionyl-and-acetoin-in-flavorings.3351/
I think TPA is pretty responsible about what is in their flavorings and I respect their openness. I recently emailed them about a flavor whose page on TPA said it had acetoin and acetyl propionyl, but the MSDS sheet didn’t list it. They told me that, yes it did have those molecules.
Diketones (or diones) is a term for a molecule with two ketone groups.
I know of at least two TPA flavors that are known to have diketones English Toffee and Vanilla Custard…
I’m not sure I have all registered. One could go through the MSDS-documents and look for 2,3-Pentanedione (which is Acetyl Propionyl) and 3-Hydroxybutanone or Acetyl methyl carbinol (which is Acetoin) - those are the two other diketones used in place of Diacetyl (2,3-butanedione)…
So, since this is the “where to buy flavorings” thread and TPA vanilla custard has been put on the naughty list, my question is this: Is there a vendor out there that makes a flavor that even comes close to TFA vanilla custard?
Capella’s Vanilla Custard V2 is the best custard without the diketones. It’s not as ‘peppery’ as V1 or TPA, although I never cared for TPA’s over CAP’s. To each their own though.
Don’t know if you knew this or not, but TPA’s Vanillia Swirl is supposed to be their custard without the diketones in it. I have never really gotten a custard taste from it though…
@ryan8five0, perhaps I will try the Cap v2. I’ve tried the TFA vanilla swirl and it’s not doing it for me. When they say they have taken out the custard notes in the description, they weren’t kidding!!! No buttery, custardy note of any kind. Very disappointed. I just use it for the vanilla factor. So, you feel there is a buttery, custardy notes to the Cap v2?
Yeah I have found TPA Vanilla Swirl to be more handy as a mixer and not a base in my recipes. Adds good depth to a flavor, but doesn’t make anything ‘custardy’ at all. The CAP V2 does have buttery, custard notes in it. It’s not as heavy as V1, which is really buttery and peppery to me. Like I said, if you are trying to rid the diketones, the CAP V2 is going to be the best option. I have 2 ADV custards I use V2 with and have tried them with V1. The flavor is identical, but my best interpretation of comparing the V1 to the V2 is that the V1 is just a heavier custard than the V2, if that makes sense.
@ryan8five0, I’m slowly leaning towards ridding my mixes of diketones, but I don’t see the situation of having >1% of the stuff in my juice as a huge thing. I eat lots of red meat, cheese, eggs, drink tons of coffee and whole milk and I practically can’t exist without 2500 calories of carbohydrates in the form of bread in my daily diet. I’ve weighed 165lbs. for as long as I can remember; don’t drink or smoke anymore. So, this diketone thing is reeeeeally on the back burner for me until some hard scientific evidence hits the scene. But, it’s good to do some research, flavor-wise, to see what folks think.
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The whole diketone thing isn’t really a big issue at the moment, only time will tell. The best flavors have diketones in them imo, they pop more. I have steered away from them, but recently haven’t cared much. 2 of my ADV are diketone crazy, but like I said, the flavor is so, so good. I have had luck with other flavors without any diketones as well, so I keep those that I really liked in my ADV rotation too. Flavor is all opinion based so it just depends on what you want to vape.
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I’m a (any type) tobacco flavor fan, so having that nice buttery, creamy and custardy quality that’s lingering in the background to smooth things off is one of those things that I can’t do without. I’ve never really noticed a peppery taste with TFA vanilla custard. Perhaps after the two or three weeks of steep time, that goes away. The FA custard is just way too lemmony for my taste. So, I’ll put the Cap v2 on my next round of vape mail and see if it can sway me to get off the diketone soup mixes; just in case that scientific proof does hit the scene.
So, I updated the Flavor Warning List last night - added loads of TPA to the list… Boring work - there were many more than I expected!
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