Hello ! So I am new mixing; still need to launch the first batch. I am curious about the attached warnings to some flavors about - “Acetoin”. Are these generally totally avoided or just if possible. I am not looking for a guarantee of health and safety but rather an understanding of normal use?
As you may or may not know, Acetoin is merely a substitute for diacetyl which is said to cause POPCORN LUNG to workers in the microwave popcorn industry. Let it be said that there has never been a case of Popcorn Lung from vaping. Let it also be said that there is wide belief that any and all substitutes for diacetyl are as bad as diacetyl, and in the case of Butyric Acid, possibly worst. The use of Acetoin is more widely used than the few flavors you are seeing with warnings here on ELR. Acetoin is not easy to avoid if you vape.
I have said this once before. I have given up worrying about Diacetyl, Acetoin, ect. I know that vapeing is by far safer even with possible harm from Diacetyl, etc. It is up to each individual to decide how they feel on this subject…
right on Ringling …
Here is some info on this topic if you feel up to reading. Wercool of VU did a nice collaboration of resources and linked them for us ! Special thanks to them !
Thank you for your responses. I was just curious.
One thing you can do to protect yourself from potential harm is to use flavors that have been tested and are ACP free. FlavorArt does this. TPA/TFA advises mixers which of its products contain these chemicals. Flavor West stated their flavors are all free of Acetoin/subs but this turned out to be a false statement. Do a little research and choose the manufacturer(s) of your flavors accordingly.
Seems to be an onslaught of complaints about the ingredients in vaping stuff.
for me, it is REAL simple, if a company discloses, once they know, that there are ingredients that could pose a risk, then I can and will decide whether to use those products.
If they lie, that is a totally different matter.
But lies are coming in from Big Tabacco, and the people they pay, Television and radio, their politicians, and especially thier propaganda machine, more commonly known as PR companies,
One more real simple thing about it, simple math
More than 4000 KNOWN and PROVEN cancer causing agents in cigarettes, vs 3 or 4 POSSIBLY harmful ingredients …
Not hard to do the math.
Actually that is not true. Flavor West has never stated that there juice is Acetoin Free. Read their MSDS Sheets. It Does appear they made a mistake saying their Yogurt is Diacetyl Free. This is what they claim of their flavors. Diacetyl Free…
That’s actually one of the problems. There is no actual proof that there is, or there is not anything to worry about with any of the items being debating when vaping. The ONLY thing that can be stated as factual is that workers in popcorn factories have developed popcorn lung from the heavy exposures they are submited to in the job place. Perhaps a few vaped on the job and thus another scare is born to fuel the FDA and the Tobacco industry’s bitching and complaining…lol
Glad I went to school, I can at least count to 4…lol
Ok, I concede that I said it wrong.
Once they say that their product does not contain “anything” that some people might think or claim or suggest, that might possibly, or are concerned that, or that suspect that there is even a remote possibility that, or that …
I guess in short, if they deny “insert here”, when in fact it does contain, “whatever”, then there is an issue from my point of view.
If they are taking the time to deny it, then it ought to be true.
Now see, it is even more confusing now than …
BTW, did you see my Fart analogy about this issue.
Probably more entertaining than the diketone debate…
I just spent about a half a hour on Flavour Art’s website trying to see any more information as to what ingredients are in Flavour Art Flavors. The only thing they appear to claim is that their flavors are Diacetyl Free, just like Flavor West does. They DO NOT make any claims of being Acetoin or Butyric Acid free. Both are substitutes for Diacetyl that many believe are no safer than Diacetyl. We all know you can not do a good custard, butter and other flavors without Diacetyl or one of it’s substitutes. EVERY Flavor Company is using to some degree Acetoin or Butyric Acid whether they claim to do so or not. We as vapers must assume this to be true, no matter the flavor company when you know it is impossible to make some flavors without Diacetyl or it’s subs…
I would beg to disagree.
In looking at the FlavourArt site, did you not see the ClearStream project? They not only analyze the flavors and the vapor but the air containing the vapor afterwards.
FA tested ALL of their flavorings for diacetyl and related diketones, years ago. Flavoring with none of these, about 140 flavors, are in their e-cig section, which is here: http://flavourartexpress.biz/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=15
‘thevapeman’ posts @reddit: I’m heeps impressed by the fact that flavourArt is testing their flavors for safety.
The testing continues and while I’m not affiliated (seemed like it was time for a disclaimer) nor to I have a dog in this fight, I would as soon use ingredients in my DIY that are a thoroughly tested and safe as possible. It only makes sense. Further, FA’s flavors are so concentrated, realistic and rich that you’ll find a much smaller percentage is required to create a recipe.
Incidentally, if any flavor is found to contain unsuitable ingredients, they are excluded from the e-liquid products but can be found in the ‘kitchen’ products as they are generally considered safe to ingest.
In any event, have fun and vape safe. See ya on VU.
Well you know, so am I however, the first link provided is a 404 error (Page not Found). The second link goes to a page that the first link is dead and the second states nothing other than their certification of Quality Control. The third link was not a lot different from the second. All about Quality Control and it appeared they were talking about Blended Juices, not flavoring. This is all good, I will not argue this. Where, and I’ll ask a second time WHERE do they tell us the ingredients in their flavors? Until someone will produce some hard facts I will stand by my belief that ALL companies in the Flavor industry are using substitutes for Diacetyl there may well be every bit as harmful or possibly even worst than Diacetyl. I stated this before as well, Neither Diacetyl, Acetoin, or Butyric Acid have any HARD FACTS PROVING they are harmful at this time. I honestly would like for you to prove me wrong because I would love to know that one of these companies has PROVEN that their flavoring are 100% safe. PLEASE, prove me wrong. Show me what they use in custards, butter flavors, and the like. I’m begging you, PLEASE show me someone has solved this problem…
Down here in Texas we have a saying, “there is not a lot of there there”.
I asked in another thread, for a link to FW’s lie, about their products and the “dangerous” contents (sic) they (Supposedly) contain .
And personally SC, you said something about “you dont have a dog in this fight”, and yet you came on here and the first 3 comments that you made the other day, were the same sorts of comments we get from Big Tabacco and the people trying to argue that “these dangerous vaping chemicals” need to be regulated.
First, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being concerned about possible side effects or dangers associated with vaping. And I feel bad if I took it the wrong way, but from my point of view, you were not just expressing a concern, but trying to assign blame, where there may not even be an issue. There have been concerns expressed by some people that I have no reason to contradict, but even they admit that there is no hard data or facts to support conclusions that there is real risk or danger, much less cause to blame someone for those unsubstantiated suspicions.
Maybe this was just miscommunication and misunderstanding. If such is the case, For my part, I apologize and hope that we can get past this misunderstanding.
Well I’m down hear in Texas but this saying is mine. I reserve this saying for my wife and all those ladies in this great big world who tend to worry just a little more than they should. If it applies to you guys, by all means, listen up. I always say to my wife, and I quote, “Please, let’s not worry until we have something to worry about”. This saying has always worked for me. I refuse to work myself up worrying when there has not been any reason to do so. Who needs the stress? In my eyes this constant debate over the contents of flavoring is absurd being no one has hard evidence to back up anything they say. It’s like they say about the guy who showed up at a gunfight with a pocket knife. What chance is there to win. We all would be much better off not debating a subject that the facts are impossible to prove and quit giving the FDA more fuel for the fire…
You quoted me, and then threw out that little gem. I know you arent talking to me. so you listen up.
I was not debating anything, I was challenging the fact that someone came in here spreading the same sort of BS that big tobacco and all of their cronies are spouting. I asked for proof, because I did not see any being provided, That was the reason I said “there was not a lot of there there”.
Apparently you havent been paying attention. So pay close attention now. I have said several times, that even if those things that so many have been going on about, are dangerous. As long as I know that they are there, I can make up my own mind about whether to use the product.
And to be honest, I do not really care what anyone else thinks about it, it is MY decision to make. And even if, again for clarity just for you, EVEN IF, those things (diacytles, diketones, or what the hell ever) are dangerous and are in ejuice, I know that it is not as bad as the cigarettes that I smoked all those years, and again, my decision.
So if you thought you were directing that comment at me, think again. Cause we have another saying down here in Texas,
" say that to my face and see what happens"
Keep in mind, we are close enough for that to happen.
@ringling and @Noobie_Mixer;
I’m disappointed ya’ll left out a few other Texan sayings, such as:
“I hope to be kicked to death by grasshoppers if it ain’t the truth.”
“You could ride to town on that blade without a blanket.”
“He could bite through a side of bacon without greasing a gum.”
“His hogs are so poor it takes six of them to make a shadow.”
“Scarce as hen’s teeth and frog fangs.”
“You can’t tell how deep a well is by measuring the length of the pump handle.”
“I think that ol’ gal swallered a watermelon seed.”
“I’ve seen cows hurt worse than this and get well.”
“Who stuck the burr under your saddle?”
“He’s making three tracks in the dirt.”
“Watch out or you’ll plow up snakes.”
“Get down and cool the seat of your saddle.”
“An empty bucket makes the most racket.”
“Some folks are all right until they get two pairs of britches.”
“Let’s call in the dogs and see if they’re wet.”
“He’s trying to throw a wide loop with a short rope.”
“I feel like I’ve been rode hard and put up wet.”
“A dry well teaches us the worth of water.”
“He has more guts than you can hang on a fence.”
“I can’t cotton to that.”
“Everytime I stand up, my mind sits down.”
“Don’t let your mouth overload your tail.”
“The time to kill a snake is when he raises his head.”
“Like tryin’ to scratch your ear with your elbow.”
“Throwin’ your rope before you make a loop ain’t gonna catch the cow.”
“Every man is born free and equal. If he gets married, that’s his fault.”
“A liar needs a good memory.”
“Figures never lie, but liars can figure.”
“A bird in the hand causes a big mess.”
“Friendly as fire ants.”
“If you put his brains in a bumblebee, he would fly backwards.”
“He’d foul up a two-car funeral.”
“He can eat corn through a picket fence.”
“He’s studyin’ to be a half-wit, and I’m afraid he ain’t gonna make it.”
"He’s a hundred dollar saddle and a twenty dollar horse man. "
“That horse will throw him so high that birds’ll build nests in his ears before he hits the ground.”
“I covered my back with my belly.”
“You can cut off a dog’s tail, but you can’t sew it back.”
“Nothin’ dries as quick as a tear.”
“A diarrhea of words and a constipation of thoughts.”
“Dirt shows up on the cleanest cotton.”
“How’s momma and them?”
“We’ve howdyed but we ain’t shook.”
Ya’ll have howdyed and hollered, now shook or it’s pistols at dawn!
Correct, wasn’t talking to you direct, just liked the quote…
I guess it does make it seem directed right at you but please be aware that it is not. By highligthing the quote it of course directed the comment at you. Be assured you are correct and not directed directly at you noob. I think you already know me enough to know this to be true
That last comment was nothing more than to say that we ALL need to stop this debate, including ME. Here on ELR, on Reddit, on all threads around the world. All we do is give the FDA more fuel for the fire. Let’s worry when we are given hard facts that give us a reason to worry.
You making your own decisions on this subject is of course commendable and I stand by you …