Tobacco Extraction Using Heated Ethanol

E-liquids NET Creations and Reviews
87

I’ve thought a lot about this and I now have 2 Vandy Vape 18mm Berserker RDAs now to help along with the A/B testing (one is out with Ken at Pipesmith to fit on e-pipe, might be a few weeks).

I also invested in a squonk mod, Dovpo Topside. I never tried squonking before, and I heard the Berserker RDA is a good one for that. I figured I could use that beside my Wismec P80 for A/B testing. I thought the Pipesmith Pipe wouldn’t be a good 1-1 comparison with a regulated mod, especially because the batteries are different.

So I’ll use my Dovpo without squonking for the A/B test. Question being, do you typically set to variable wattage? Have you ever tried temperature control? Part of my tests are going to be finding the right RTA/RDA - coil build - Mod combo for NET e-liquid.

I have different gauges of kanthal and SS wire to try. Currently using cotton bacon with success. Will try rayon as well. I tried hemp wick, which was like vaping a pile of wet leaves. Perhaps it needed a wash/break-in period. I think I’ll put that one on the back burner to try again later.

In other news, I’ve decided to start another NET extraction from the beginning. This time with popular blends on the e-cigarette forum: Sutliff Vodoo Queen, Louisiana Red, and Cornell & Diehl Billy Budd. Why reinvent the wheel at this stage by making my own blends? I tried these in 8 ounce canning jars this time, using 1 micron polyester filter felt from Duda Diesel. The polyester felt is far superior to coffee filters and Whatman paper filters in my opinion. Faster flow rate and catches more oils I believe.

I will also keep the extracts in the dry ice for two days now that I know I have a setup that keeps the dry ice frozen for that long.

For giggles, I’m also going to try a quick wash ethanol extraction (QWET), which is used in the cannabis industry to minimize chlorophyl and wax in the final product. In this case, both tobacco and 190 proof PGA will be placed in dry ice separately, and then combined in a mason jar for only 3 minutes. The ethanol is strained, and then the tobacco is soaked with more ethanol. The ethanol is then strained as before and the result is evaporated at room temperature. My thought is that for 3 minutes in the freezer, it’s just not enough for flavor, but you never know, maybe it will be interesting.

2 Likes
88

I feel the same way, but out of pure laziness! :confused: However, @50YearsOfCigars has done a bang up job of cloning Dunhill Royal Yacht with whole leaf extracts. It might not have that sweetish back-note of a processed leaf extract, but it’s pretty darn close to the base notes of the blend. He doesn’t fancy the casing in processed tobacco blends… thus, he blends his own from unprocessed whole leaf.

Good luck with your extraction experiments! :hugs:

1 Like
90

Sounds interesting. :sunglasses: Perhaps one day I’ll give the roobios a try again; my spouse and daughter like different things on occasion.

Me… I’m too married to straight tobacco. Lately, I’ve kinda gone down the Va/Per or Va/Oriental path. They just tend to sit with me better as an ADV.

A very simple SS316 round wire, single wrap @ 2.5mm ID, landing between .75 and 1ohms (8 to 10 wraps). I’ve got no use for anything else. I rewick and clean my coils just about every day; depending on how much I’ve vaped a particular atty that day. I found that, for me, keeping things simple and vaping low wattage, bypass mode, or mech mod is the way to go for my maximum enjoyment. You’ll see what I mean once you get your pipe from PipeSmith.

These days, my favorite setup is an Ammit 22mm RDA (with my specified build) sitting on a Asmodus Luna (squonk) unregulated mod… pure enjoyment! :sunglasses: Perhaps one day, I’ll spring for a pipe from this guy:

https://epipemods.com/

… very pretty, but not cheap. :smirk:

1 Like
93

Yup…

image

…we’ve officially made it happen! :rofl:

I’ll see if I can find another thread on which to pin this convo. Otherwise, I’ll start another thread. :hugs:

1 Like
94

Thanks for the heads up. I am going to start another thread when experiments are complete. I plan on giving an A-Z process from hot ethanol extraction, to dry ice freeze filtering, to MTL coil build. But on topic here, I tried a second round of extractions using Sutliff Voodoo Queen, and the flavor is phenomenal. Really on to something here…

2 Likes
95

Just so ya know… I did answer your questions here:

:wink:

1 Like
96

Well, this catches my attention for a couple of reasons. One is that I have previously expressed concern about new NET experimenters following too closly to the advice at the e-cigarette forum. See HERE for details on that.

Second, if you look at listing of Sutliff Tobacco Blends you will notice that they are firmly in the camp of heavy aromatic and cased (artificial additives, particularly they are noted for their use of chocolate and heavy vanilla). That is OK, I guess, but just be aware of where when following e-cigarette forum where in the vast world of tobacco what corner that takes you to.

See a listing of Sutliff tobacco and their blending types (Aromatic & English) HERE

But the usual disclaimer applies = TIS (taste is subjective). So if you’re happy, then I’m happy. :slight_smile:

3 Likes
97

I find in one of the there-referenced posts of yours (this, in Dec 2017) the business of ECF posted Ethanol extraction information is specifically mentioned and commented upon. What would you think about potential viability using various mixtures of (non-noxious as is, and not removed) solvents - such as Ethanol along with PG, and/or along with Glycerol (reputedly, from one source, significantly decreasing its room temp viscosity) ? Or, is removal of most of the Ethanol solvent desirable/required when that is a component ?

1 Like
98

I have always wondered why no one has tried using distilled water. Both the Ethyl Alcohol and water is non toxic and can be left in the final product, but both have some issues in usability if all of it is left there. The solvent reduction is usually performed just to get rid of the “vaping arti-facts” like excessive spitting on the hot coils, and with the EA, you don’t want to get drunk in the process of vaping :slight_smile:

There are many solvents that will dissolve and carry over all sorts of flavor fractions. The big problem for us kitchen chemisrty type making vape liquid are two: One is Cost, the other is Toxicity. For example, in industry Hexane is a common solvent in food extraction processing. Most of the Soy Bean Oil you find on the supermarket shelve has been extracted with Hexane. But all the (toxic) Hexane is removed with (very expensive) industrial processing equipment. The issue for us in kitchen: we could certainly use things like Hexane, Liquid supercritical CO2, but we can’t withstand the cost of the required equipment.

However we could get the water extractions reduced to very low levels in a vacuum using low temp dehydration techniques. You can buy pretty decent vacuum pumps at Amazon and Harbor Freight Tools for not too much $$$ that would do the job. I might have to put this one on the “2DO” list, it’s probably worth a try. Then, any way, you kill two birds with one stone, the pump will doube-duty for your Buchner Flask Filtration.

Thanks for jogging my “hobby nerve” on this. Just what I need, one more kitchen project !!!

My other favorite “2DO” list item is making a simple “ferris wheel” that hold a dozen pint jars and is driven by a 10RPM motor. I have a feeling this is the magic carpet ride to much faster extraction times. First a “hot bump” start (preferably in Ultra-Sonic) then a week or two on the wheel…
ferris%20wheel wheel"

1 Like
99

Hahaha… sorry I realize I never answered exactly your question. I just wandered off on the subject in a free association :-). anyway, no there is no problem mixing several solvents and doing a"combined extraction" From a chemistry point of view, as long as the various (mixed) carrier solvents do not approach a “saturation point” of the desired material it is trying pick up then you are “good to go”. And considering the very extremely small amounts of these dissolved material we are talking orders of magnitude below levels of true chemical saturation with the solvents involved, that is a non issue.

I think the issue with using VG has to do with long periods of storage of the final extract. If I understand correctly this was mentioned by one of the chemists that was interviewed in a PBusardo tour of Flavor Art. They tried that, but found that the extract deteriorated with VG carriers over time much more rapidly than PG.

1 Like
100

Kind of like a scientific use rotating mixer, able to hold a few mason jars… got me thinking, maybe convert an old rotating rock tumbler I have

1 Like
101

I think that I have located the statement that you reference - in Part 1 of these videos (right here). The fellow being interviewed seems to be saying that VG reacts more readily with various “flavor components” during the extraction process itself(?) in a way(s) that they themselves deemed to be undesirable - as opposed to being a statement relating to decomposition of completed extraction products over time ?

Have read that “like dissolves like” (here and here).

Topological Polar Surface Area:

Glycerol Topological Polar Surface Area - 60.7 A^2

Propylene Glycol Topological Polar Surface Area - 40.5 A^2

Ethanol Topological Polar Surface Area - 20.2 A^2

Dialectric Constant (Relative Permittivity):

Glycerol - 46

Propylene Glycol - 32.1

Ethanol - 25

Wow, the (in the above cases) observed relationship between Polar Surface Area and Relative Permittivity disappears in a rather spectacular way where it comes to enigmatic molecule of Water, where:
PSA equals unit area (appears to be the reference area for measurement of this quantity ?); and
RP equals almost twice that of the highest RP of the other solvents listed above (at 80)

Hexane appears to have a Polar Surface Area that is equal to zero. What to make of that characteristic ?
Hexane isomers are largely unreactive, and are frequently used as an inert solvent in organic reactions because they are very non-polar.
Should one conclude that preferred solvents are solvents having the lowest molecular “polarity”, then ?

Are “Polar Surface Area” and “Relative Permittivity” viable indicators of a relative (potential) “reactivity” ? It seems that perhaps the answer(s) likely depend very much on the structure and (the above-mentioned) related characteristics of the solute(s) themselves. Where does that leave one when considering the fates of various “flavor components” ? Can certain “blanket” statements be made about “flavor components” ?

A 2015 ELR thread links to Parts 1 and 2 of those (what I suspect you are referencing above) videos here.

1 Like
102

I like both your references, and they generally state very useful information on the chemistry that is applicable in a broad sense. But all these processes should not be considered “black and white or all or nothing”… In the practical application of process chemistry in the real world you have to understand that there are many factors to the degree of solubility that will effect a final outcome: applied heat, extent of forces of the mechanical mixing, and purity of the sample and of the solvent. So the last part of your post that starts with the “like dissolves like” is getting, in my estimation a little too strict with the chemistry. Sometime things that are true in the classroom, in other words ways of stating relationships that make good test questions for the students on the test, will be a problem for the student later on when we put him in the real world and ask him to “make us something useful”.

Actually there are industrial processes that can do “magic tricks” with solubility and get you results that are unexpected from the standpoint of pure chemistry. High Shear Homogenization is an example.

So, for what we want in our vape liquid, we must reach out and use solvents that may not provide 100% absolute solubility, but never the less get us a few of the desirable molecules, admittedly not all of them, but sometimes that is not necessary. Remember that some of these flavor molecules are very potent as agents that trigger our sensory system. For our purposes “some molecules” equals some flavor which is better than no molecules and no flavor.

I did listen again to the interview, and I see what you mean, however I took the gist of it, the first time I heard it, to imply that there were issues of storage with VG extracted flavors and I took that to mean “issues of stability”. He does say that. I should not have jumped to extending the use of the term stability to mean degradation in a sense that implies unpleasant flavor altering reactions like oxidation.

1 Like
103

While solubility seems to be desirable, at the same time reactivity seems to not be desirable. Should one conclude that preferred solvents are solvents having the lower molecular “polarity”, then ? If so, would not Ethanol appear to be preferable to PG and VG (if using “polarity” as a possible indicator of “reactivity”) ?

1 Like
105

Nano-Nanny-Bot has noted that this is my 3rd REPLY to you on this thread. Trouble in River City, verily !

However much you knock at nature’s door,
she will never answer you in comprehensible words.
-Ivan Turgenev

I’m clear on the existence of complicated differences between “solubility” and “reactivity”. What is mine to wonder why relates to the there-related comparative characteristics of VG, PG, Ethanol, and Hexane in relation to some of the molecular entities that you have (to some extent) identified (in general). Understood that generalized assumptions are dicey, and that the complexity of the “solute(s)” are indeed considerable.

50Years: I have used the catchall term flavonoids’ but these desirable components that we want to extract and carry to our vape juice is broad range of amino acids, polyphenols, aromatic acids, Lignin, and other phenolics. Other delicate items that are now considered to be some of the most important aroma precursors responsible for tobacco flavor are sugar esters, beta-o-glucopyranose (a glucose tetraester) This and the more predominant sucrose tetraester, as well. All these compounds are subject to auto-oxidative reactions, which cause degradation, in response to heat, which is both an accelerant and an initiator in these destructive reactions.

… whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land …
With such blessings the earth freely furnished them . . .
-Plato, Critias

1 Like
107

I guess that we don’t really know much (specific) about differences between those solvents interacting with tobacco “flavinoids” [ a broad range of amino acids, polyphenols, aromatic acids, Lignin, and other phenolics. … sugar esters, beta-o-glucopyranose (a glucose tetraester) … sucrose tetraester ]. Taste buds do not reveal specifics - and inherent subjectivity of individual tastes/preferences further confounds.

I previously developed electronic circuitry intended to enhance (in a way pleasing to many others) musical expressions, and enjoy processing my camera recorded images, courting the eye. In all these things, the somewhat ineffable “feedback loops” between utilizing numbers and technology in a marriage with sensory aesthetics have been ruled by the vast and mysterious deeply humbling complexities surrounding aesthetic qualia. Notably, Nature drives the loop, numbers/machines follow. So I can indeed relate to due reverence.

Have found - when sampling test-mixes of various NET extracts - that the circadian bio-chemistry of my system (chemo-receptors, etc) itself changes in various ways throughout the day and into the evening. That makes “A/B” comparisons at some single point along that daily cycle not as representative as trying-out one thing at a time, with (longer term) “bio-averaged” impressions. My sensory faculties, in essence, choose.

The most important part of our lives - our sensations, emotions, desires, and aspirations - takes place in a universe of illusions which science can attenuate or destroy, but which it is powerless to enrich.
-Joseph Wood Krutch

1 Like
108

I read of someone trying a water extraction of tobacco with success. It only took a few minutes to steep, and after some evaporation, was ready for shake and vape.

My concern was the pops and spits from adding a water based extract to an eliquid. Also, there is nothing to really preserve the extract, as there would be no antimicrobial properties with the water. But I am thinking now that it might be evaporated and transferred to ethanol for further evaporation and to preserve it.

The benefit I imagine would be that the water based extract wouldn’t absorb the oils and tars and waxes, and filtration would be simple.

With ethanol, it will always hold oils, even after freeze filtering, as demonstrated by doing a post-freeze filter evaporation. Residue always forms during evaporation from my experience.

Not to mention water is cheap. Some people have difficulty sourcing 190 proof PGA, or it’s too cost prohibitive.

The water based extract was on my to-do list, just haven’t gotten that far yet.

2 Likes
110

I didn’t mind the outcome of EA extractions, ‘tis true. They seemed to be a bit more vibrant to the palate. But, as I’ve said before, the whole process was a bit too fiddly for me. I’ll admit… I’m an “easy way out” NET maker. My process suits my tastebuds and DIY nature of things.

However, I laud other folks adventurous wanderings in the NET realm. :hugs: That’s what it’s all about… finding your own method and passing on information which might be helpful to others.

2 Likes
111

I hate getting ahead of myself here, but I’ve come across some interesting discoveries. I extracted a cigar of mine a while back, a “Fleur De La Reine” in PGA. Took an 8oz mason jar to fit the whole thing, around 200ml PGA. 1 week cold soak followed by 12 hour hot extraction. Evaporated to 50ml, and dry ice freeze filtered, followed by a final evaporation down to 30ml.

When I tried an e-liquid at 10% extract about a month on the shelf, it was weak and unimpressive. But after about 2 months, I tried it again for the heck of it; the flavor was very complex, a little skunky in a good way, if any cigar smokers know what I mean. Still just a touch too weak, but very promising.

The real kicker is that I’ve vaped two full tanks of it on a KF Prime, on my third tank, using the same wick and coil. Chain vaped at times. The wick and coil look new for all intents and purposes. I’m going to keep refilling until it’s burnt. This is 90% VG, mind you.

I’ve been trying lower wattage, and that seems to help. I’m around 10-11 watts. To be honest, I can’t remember the build, I’m pretty sure it’s kanthal. Maybe 28 gauge. Comes in around 1.2 ohms.

I’m going to evaporate my PGA extract down to 20ml or so. It’s pretty outrageous starting with 200 or so ml and evaporating down that far, but for the flavor, it’s worth it to me.

The only thing it’s missing is that ash tray in your mouth kind of feel, which I find myself surprisingly missing. The Vodoo Queen accomplishes that well. I think it’s the Latakia. I’m going to add just a touch of Latakia as a little ‘seasoning’ to my next e-liquid batch of Fleur De La Reine.

Time allowing, i will try some more cigar extracts. I think I will try to go more robust, edgy.

1 Like
112

I am not quite following all this. Do I have this right? The “extract about a month on the shelf” was only the already extracted Ethyl Alcohol by itself with the tobacco feedstock since removed at the point of the 1 week cold soak 12hr hot extraction? If true then I am not getting what you are wanting the already extracted EA to do by itself over time on the shelf. You then say " But after about 2 months I tried it again…" So do you mean,“tried again” of the already extracted EA only without any additional feedstock?

If I get the gist of all this, it seems like you are thinking something is supposed to be happening to the already extracted fluid over time in the absence of a feedstock to get to a goal of a “better extract” -meaning perhaps ‘more flavor’ -more robust?

1 Like