I’ll have to try this out! I wish 190 proof PGA was as cheap as tobacco, I’d have 5 gallons of extracts by now!
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I ended up placing the 4oz canning jars in the cooler and surrounding it in dry ice pellets. As the pellets evaporated, I added more ice to keep them covered up.
I am beginning to wonder that. The Virginia was butchered when I poured it over dry ice pellets. It ended up having more gunk in the finished product. Even though it gunked up my coils and wick quickly, the flavor improved as I vaped. In other words the gunk had a nice taste to it.
Unfortunately, I found that I have a PG sensitivity. I had to cut out PG entirely. But I agree, I need to get a little more rigid about my experimentation. Being a newbie to vaping, in addition to being a newbie to DIY NET, there are a lot of missteps that inhibit reliable conclusions at this time. To think I didn’t know what NET, RTA, MTL, and such meant as of late last year…
I have a Berseker MTL RDA in Colorado right now with Pipesmith Pipes, fitting a pipe stem for it. I haven’t tried a dripper before. I am looking forward to it. It seems the most ideal device for NET, as well as someone working on custom blends. Don’t have to vape a whole tank until changing flavors.
I have been using a SXK Kayfun Prime, which has been a real puzzle trying to wick properly for 90% VG in the winter. I finally got it to work with a really fluffed up Scottish roll technique using Cotton Bacon. Very thin tails, good shoulders…
Alas, that’s the budget for this year. I think next year I will invest in another mod and another Berserker for simultaneous tests.
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Derailing a bit here…
Ahhh, yeah… I’d say so! 
Those custom e-pipes aren’t cheap. But, I know you’ll enjoy it once in hand. As of late, I have really enjoyed getting back into an unregulated mod setup. I use a tank at work… however, once at home, I religiously switch over to my Asmodus Luna squonk mod with an Ammit RDA. I guess it’s that gentle coil ramp up time and slow battery tail off which I enjoy so much. In the beginning, I started out using mech mods… and I find myself reverting back to the comfortable, easy-going solace which unregulated mods offer.
Completely understandable 
…not to be a Debbie Downer, but, I think the KF Prime was a failed, awful, social experiment… an atomizer doomed to be shoved to the back of the shelf to collect dust… esp. for high VG ratio users. My ardent hope is that the latest KF 2019 doesn’t follow the same route. We shall see… 
You will, hopefully, find it to be a joy! Especially in the wicking department… And eventually, you’ll settle into which RDA air flow options suit you best for maximum flavor enjoyment.
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Yes, I like the simplicity of the Berserker, can’t wait to try it. I just watched PBusardo review of Kayfun Lite 2019, if that’s what you’re talking about. It looked interesting, much simpler. I never understood people in videos with a shelf full of mods and atomizers, but I am starting to get the picture. Just sort of happens bit by bit.
Never vaped a mech mod myself. Looking forward to it. Again, simplicity. Less points of failure, provided you respect the safety aspects…
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I’ve thought a lot about this and I now have 2 Vandy Vape 18mm Berserker RDAs now to help along with the A/B testing (one is out with Ken at Pipesmith to fit on e-pipe, might be a few weeks).
I also invested in a squonk mod, Dovpo Topside. I never tried squonking before, and I heard the Berserker RDA is a good one for that. I figured I could use that beside my Wismec P80 for A/B testing. I thought the Pipesmith Pipe wouldn’t be a good 1-1 comparison with a regulated mod, especially because the batteries are different.
So I’ll use my Dovpo without squonking for the A/B test. Question being, do you typically set to variable wattage? Have you ever tried temperature control? Part of my tests are going to be finding the right RTA/RDA - coil build - Mod combo for NET e-liquid.
I have different gauges of kanthal and SS wire to try. Currently using cotton bacon with success. Will try rayon as well. I tried hemp wick, which was like vaping a pile of wet leaves. Perhaps it needed a wash/break-in period. I think I’ll put that one on the back burner to try again later.
In other news, I’ve decided to start another NET extraction from the beginning. This time with popular blends on the e-cigarette forum: Sutliff Vodoo Queen, Louisiana Red, and Cornell & Diehl Billy Budd. Why reinvent the wheel at this stage by making my own blends? I tried these in 8 ounce canning jars this time, using 1 micron polyester filter felt from Duda Diesel. The polyester felt is far superior to coffee filters and Whatman paper filters in my opinion. Faster flow rate and catches more oils I believe.
I will also keep the extracts in the dry ice for two days now that I know I have a setup that keeps the dry ice frozen for that long.
For giggles, I’m also going to try a quick wash ethanol extraction (QWET), which is used in the cannabis industry to minimize chlorophyl and wax in the final product. In this case, both tobacco and 190 proof PGA will be placed in dry ice separately, and then combined in a mason jar for only 3 minutes. The ethanol is strained, and then the tobacco is soaked with more ethanol. The ethanol is then strained as before and the result is evaporated at room temperature. My thought is that for 3 minutes in the freezer, it’s just not enough for flavor, but you never know, maybe it will be interesting.
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I feel the same way, but out of pure laziness! 
However, @50YearsOfCigars has done a bang up job of cloning Dunhill Royal Yacht with whole leaf extracts. It might not have that sweetish back-note of a processed leaf extract, but it’s pretty darn close to the base notes of the blend. He doesn’t fancy the casing in processed tobacco blends… thus, he blends his own from unprocessed whole leaf.
Good luck with your extraction experiments! 
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Sounds interesting. 
Perhaps one day I’ll give the roobios a try again; my spouse and daughter like different things on occasion.
Me… I’m too married to straight tobacco. Lately, I’ve kinda gone down the Va/Per or Va/Oriental path. They just tend to sit with me better as an ADV.
A very simple SS316 round wire, single wrap @ 2.5mm ID, landing between .75 and 1ohms (8 to 10 wraps). I’ve got no use for anything else. I rewick and clean my coils just about every day; depending on how much I’ve vaped a particular atty that day. I found that, for me, keeping things simple and vaping low wattage, bypass mode, or mech mod is the way to go for my maximum enjoyment. You’ll see what I mean once you get your pipe from PipeSmith.
These days, my favorite setup is an Ammit 22mm RDA (with my specified build) sitting on a Asmodus Luna (squonk) unregulated mod… pure enjoyment! Perhaps one day, I’ll spring for a pipe from this guy:
… very pretty, but not cheap.
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Yup…
…we’ve officially made it happen! 
I’ll see if I can find another thread on which to pin this convo. Otherwise, I’ll start another thread. 
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Thanks for the heads up. I am going to start another thread when experiments are complete. I plan on giving an A-Z process from hot ethanol extraction, to dry ice freeze filtering, to MTL coil build. But on topic here, I tried a second round of extractions using Sutliff Voodoo Queen, and the flavor is phenomenal. Really on to something here…
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Just so ya know… I did answer your questions here:
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Well, this catches my attention for a couple of reasons. One is that I have previously expressed concern about new NET experimenters following too closly to the advice at the e-cigarette forum. See HERE for details on that.
Second, if you look at listing of Sutliff Tobacco Blends you will notice that they are firmly in the camp of heavy aromatic and cased (artificial additives, particularly they are noted for their use of chocolate and heavy vanilla). That is OK, I guess, but just be aware of where when following e-cigarette forum where in the vast world of tobacco what corner that takes you to.
See a listing of Sutliff tobacco and their blending types (Aromatic & English) HERE
But the usual disclaimer applies = TIS (taste is subjective). So if you’re happy, then I’m happy. 
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I find in one of the there-referenced posts of yours (this, in Dec 2017) the business of ECF posted Ethanol extraction information is specifically mentioned and commented upon. What would you think about potential viability using various mixtures of (non-noxious as is, and not removed) solvents - such as Ethanol along with PG, and/or along with Glycerol (reputedly, from one source, significantly decreasing its room temp viscosity) ? Or, is removal of most of the Ethanol solvent desirable/required when that is a component ?
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I have always wondered why no one has tried using distilled water. Both the Ethyl Alcohol and water is non toxic and can be left in the final product, but both have some issues in usability if all of it is left there. The solvent reduction is usually performed just to get rid of the “vaping arti-facts” like excessive spitting on the hot coils, and with the EA, you don’t want to get drunk in the process of vaping
There are many solvents that will dissolve and carry over all sorts of flavor fractions. The big problem for us kitchen chemisrty type making vape liquid are two: One is Cost, the other is Toxicity. For example, in industry Hexane is a common solvent in food extraction processing. Most of the Soy Bean Oil you find on the supermarket shelve has been extracted with Hexane. But all the (toxic) Hexane is removed with (very expensive) industrial processing equipment. The issue for us in kitchen: we could certainly use things like Hexane, Liquid supercritical CO2, but we can’t withstand the cost of the required equipment.
However we could get the water extractions reduced to very low levels in a vacuum using low temp dehydration techniques. You can buy pretty decent vacuum pumps at Amazon and Harbor Freight Tools for not too much $$$ that would do the job. I might have to put this one on the “2DO” list, it’s probably worth a try. Then, any way, you kill two birds with one stone, the pump will doube-duty for your Buchner Flask Filtration.
Thanks for jogging my “hobby nerve” on this. Just what I need, one more kitchen project !!!
My other favorite “2DO” list item is making a simple “ferris wheel” that hold a dozen pint jars and is driven by a 10RPM motor. I have a feeling this is the magic carpet ride to much faster extraction times. First a “hot bump” start (preferably in Ultra-Sonic) then a week or two on the wheel…
wheel"
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Hahaha… sorry I realize I never answered exactly your question. I just wandered off on the subject in a free association :-). anyway, no there is no problem mixing several solvents and doing a"combined extraction" From a chemistry point of view, as long as the various (mixed) carrier solvents do not approach a “saturation point” of the desired material it is trying pick up then you are “good to go”. And considering the very extremely small amounts of these dissolved material we are talking orders of magnitude below levels of true chemical saturation with the solvents involved, that is a non issue.
I think the issue with using VG has to do with long periods of storage of the final extract. If I understand correctly this was mentioned by one of the chemists that was interviewed in a PBusardo tour of Flavor Art. They tried that, but found that the extract deteriorated with VG carriers over time much more rapidly than PG.
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Kind of like a scientific use rotating mixer, able to hold a few mason jars… got me thinking, maybe convert an old rotating rock tumbler I have
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I think that I have located the statement that you reference - in Part 1 of these videos (right here). The fellow being interviewed seems to be saying that VG reacts more readily with various “flavor components” during the extraction process itself(?) in a way(s) that they themselves deemed to be undesirable - as opposed to being a statement relating to decomposition of completed extraction products over time ?
Have read that “like dissolves like” (here and here).
Topological Polar Surface Area:
Glycerol Topological Polar Surface Area - 60.7 A^2
Propylene Glycol Topological Polar Surface Area - 40.5 A^2
Ethanol Topological Polar Surface Area - 20.2 A^2
Dialectric Constant (Relative Permittivity):
Glycerol - 46
Propylene Glycol - 32.1
Ethanol - 25
Wow, the (in the above cases) observed relationship between Polar Surface Area and Relative Permittivity disappears in a rather spectacular way where it comes to enigmatic molecule of Water, where:
PSA equals unit area (appears to be the reference area for measurement of this quantity ?); and
RP equals almost twice that of the highest RP of the other solvents listed above (at 80)
Hexane appears to have a Polar Surface Area that is equal to zero. What to make of that characteristic ?
Hexane isomers are largely unreactive, and are frequently used as an inert solvent in organic reactions because they are very non-polar.
Should one conclude that preferred solvents are solvents having the lowest molecular “polarity”, then ?
Are “Polar Surface Area” and “Relative Permittivity” viable indicators of a relative (potential) “reactivity” ? It seems that perhaps the answer(s) likely depend very much on the structure and (the above-mentioned) related characteristics of the solute(s) themselves. Where does that leave one when considering the fates of various “flavor components” ? Can certain “blanket” statements be made about “flavor components” ?
A 2015 ELR thread links to Parts 1 and 2 of those (what I suspect you are referencing above) videos here.
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I like both your references, and they generally state very useful information on the chemistry that is applicable in a broad sense. But all these processes should not be considered “black and white or all or nothing”… In the practical application of process chemistry in the real world you have to understand that there are many factors to the degree of solubility that will effect a final outcome: applied heat, extent of forces of the mechanical mixing, and purity of the sample and of the solvent. So the last part of your post that starts with the “like dissolves like” is getting, in my estimation a little too strict with the chemistry. Sometime things that are true in the classroom, in other words ways of stating relationships that make good test questions for the students on the test, will be a problem for the student later on when we put him in the real world and ask him to “make us something useful”.
Actually there are industrial processes that can do “magic tricks” with solubility and get you results that are unexpected from the standpoint of pure chemistry. High Shear Homogenization is an example.
So, for what we want in our vape liquid, we must reach out and use solvents that may not provide 100% absolute solubility, but never the less get us a few of the desirable molecules, admittedly not all of them, but sometimes that is not necessary. Remember that some of these flavor molecules are very potent as agents that trigger our sensory system. For our purposes “some molecules” equals some flavor which is better than no molecules and no flavor.
I did listen again to the interview, and I see what you mean, however I took the gist of it, the first time I heard it, to imply that there were issues of storage with VG extracted flavors and I took that to mean “issues of stability”. He does say that. I should not have jumped to extending the use of the term stability to mean degradation in a sense that implies unpleasant flavor altering reactions like oxidation.
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While solubility seems to be desirable, at the same time reactivity seems to not be desirable. Should one conclude that preferred solvents are solvents having the lower molecular “polarity”, then ? If so, would not Ethanol appear to be preferable to PG and VG (if using “polarity” as a possible indicator of “reactivity”) ?
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Nano-Nanny-Bot has noted that this is my 3rd REPLY to you on this thread. Trouble in River City, verily !
However much you knock at nature’s door,
she will never answer you in comprehensible words.
-Ivan Turgenev
I’m clear on the existence of complicated differences between “solubility” and “reactivity”. What is mine to wonder why relates to the there-related comparative characteristics of VG, PG, Ethanol, and Hexane in relation to some of the molecular entities that you have (to some extent) identified (in general). Understood that generalized assumptions are dicey, and that the complexity of the “solute(s)” are indeed considerable.
50Years: I have used the catchall term flavonoids’ but these desirable components that we want to extract and carry to our vape juice is broad range of amino acids, polyphenols, aromatic acids, Lignin, and other phenolics. Other delicate items that are now considered to be some of the most important aroma precursors responsible for tobacco flavor are sugar esters, beta-o-glucopyranose (a glucose tetraester) This and the more predominant sucrose tetraester, as well. All these compounds are subject to auto-oxidative reactions, which cause degradation, in response to heat, which is both an accelerant and an initiator in these destructive reactions.
… whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land …
With such blessings the earth freely furnished them . . .
-Plato, Critias
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I guess that we don’t really know much (specific) about differences between those solvents interacting with tobacco “flavinoids” [ a broad range of amino acids, polyphenols, aromatic acids, Lignin, and other phenolics. … sugar esters, beta-o-glucopyranose (a glucose tetraester) … sucrose tetraester ]. Taste buds do not reveal specifics - and inherent subjectivity of individual tastes/preferences further confounds.
I previously developed electronic circuitry intended to enhance (in a way pleasing to many others) musical expressions, and enjoy processing my camera recorded images, courting the eye. In all these things, the somewhat ineffable “feedback loops” between utilizing numbers and technology in a marriage with sensory aesthetics have been ruled by the vast and mysterious deeply humbling complexities surrounding aesthetic qualia. Notably, Nature drives the loop, numbers/machines follow. So I can indeed relate to due reverence.
Have found - when sampling test-mixes of various NET extracts - that the circadian bio-chemistry of my system (chemo-receptors, etc) itself changes in various ways throughout the day and into the evening. That makes “A/B” comparisons at some single point along that daily cycle not as representative as trying-out one thing at a time, with (longer term) “bio-averaged” impressions. My sensory faculties, in essence, choose.
The most important part of our lives - our sensations, emotions, desires, and aspirations - takes place in a universe of illusions which science can attenuate or destroy, but which it is powerless to enrich.
-Joseph Wood Krutch
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